UMD Libertarians

Then again, we’re Americans so our opinion doesn’t matter.
I personally don’t care, just another ‘drivers license’.

I support it, if it’s opt in, which it’s not, so I don’t. really

thats a very dim view to take

If it would mean I don’t have to give out my social security number all the time (any time I apply for a job, loan, credit card, apartment, or driver’s license in a new state) then I would be in favor of it. The social security number is a form of national ID already, but there isn’t enough security there for me to trust anyone with it - it’s just a number, anyone could write it on a post-it note if they’re given access to it.

and thats the attitude they want you to have
you already have one in your pocket. The only difference is a few minor laws the state needs to follow
Ok, I’ll bite…

what info will be on it, aside from what is on your current driver’s license?
they are gonna have everyone hooked up to GPS and shit. fuck all that.

it would be the same with your ID number…people would need access to it, just like your SS#. i dont think it will be much more secure.
here’s a couple of links:

I’ve become a realist over time.
this is interesting:

from the wiki:

“Original legislation contained one of the most controversial elements which did not make it into the final legislation that was signed into law. It would have required states to sign a new compact known as the Driver License Agreement (DLA) as written by the Joint Driver’s License Compact/ Non-Resident Violators Compact Executive Board with the support of AAMVA which would have required states to give reciprocity to those provinces and territories in Canada and those states in Mexico that joined the DLA and complied with its provisions. As a part of the DLA, states would be required to network their databases with these provinces, territories and Mexican states. The databases that are accessible would include sensitive information such as Social Security numbers, home addresses and other information. The foreign states and provinces are not required to abide with the Drivers Privacy Protection Act (DPPA) and are free to access and use the sensitive information as they see fit.”
what’s next a tattoo on my arm?

fuck you and fuck your RF enabled ‘ID’
i can’t think of a single advantage to it, other than for the government
And we supposedly live in a “democracy”:

“The original Real ID Act, H. R. 418, was approved by the House on February 10, 2005 by a vote of 261-161. At the insistence of the Real ID Act sponsor and then House Judiciary Committee Chair F. James Sensenbrenner (Republican, Wisconsin), the Real ID Act was subsequently attached by the House Republican leadership as a rider to H.R. 1268, a bill dealing with emergency appropriations for the Iraq War and with the Tsunami relief funding. H.R. 1268 was widely regarded as a “must-pass” legislation. The original version of H.R. 1268 was passed by the Senate on April 21, 2005 and did not include the Real ID Act. However, the Real ID Act was inserted in the conference report on H.R. 1268 that was then passed by the House on May 5, 2005 by a 368-58 vote and was unanimously passed by the Senate on May 10, 2005.[27] The Senate never discussed or voted on the Real ID Act specifically and no Senate committee hearings were conducted on the Real ID Act prior to its passage. [28] Critics charged that this procedure was undemocratic and that the bill’s proponents avoided a substantive debate on a far-reaching piece of legislation by attaching it to a “must-pass” bill. [29][30][31][32]

A May 3, 2005 statement by the American Immigration Lawyers Association said: “Because Congress held no hearings or meaningful debate on the legislation and amended it to a must-pass spending bill, the REAL ID Act did not receive the scrutiny necessary for most measures, and most certainly not the level required for a measure of this importance and impact. Consistent with the lack of debate and discussion, conference negotiations also were held behind closed doors, with Democrats prevented from participating.””
it would great if they tied your ssn, drivers’ license, health card for us up here,etc to it, so you only had to carry one card, but having one extra piece of id doesn’t really seem all the necessary.

How about giving some supporting arguments for either side then I’ll make a decision

There is no RFID on the real id. Passports do though.

nothing.

The only difference is there will be a standard for all 50 states. Until recently, some states’ DL were basically nothing more then a piece of paper and anyone could copy them.
next thing we’ll know is that every time we step in front of a cop, they’re going to ask to see the ID or they’ll throw us in jail…

what country use to do that shit back in the days? ask to see your “paper”

SC ruled otherwise.
Fuck no. It’s bad enough that social security cards are used as national IDs as it is.

A national ID could change that.

They better not start this shit here. They were going on about it a lto before and papers were reporting that the cost was likely to be over �150 a card

Then all the shit with missing laptops, CDs and memory sticks with personal details goes missing and it goes a bit quiet lolz.

.

Lots of things COULD change.

A required national ID would greatly change the SC ruling on a citizen’s requirement (or lack thereof) to present optional ID.
Oh, and REAL ID isn’t a national ID, but it sure as hell paves the way.

It’s not required to carry, merely to be issued.

“It” doesn’t even exist yet, but the mere fact it would be required to be issued to could change the current court ruling on the lack of a requirement to carry optional ID.
The database that houses this information will be available to Canadian officials as well as Mexican officials.

So, a national driver’s license, all in the same format. That’s not bad.

A federally administered drivers license that will allow states to pull up all records on you whenever you cross a state border.
Yay! National ID cards. False sense of security FTW

If its not a national ID, then what is it?

Why make these changes at all if its not a National ID?
If you’re basically going to put the feds in charge of drivers licenses at least stop making people go though the dmv bullshit when moving from state to state and just nationalize drivers licenses.

That’s not what REAL ID is at all, but even if it were, there’s a huge problem with that.

Don’t be so sure.

from wiki:

“It will use common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).”
Real ID, is dangerous and is just one more step down the already slippery slope our government has been treading on over the last several years since 9/11. It does little to prevent terrorists from acting inside our country, but it does allow the government to keep “watch lists” of it’s own citizens, and would give police the ability to detain or punish those who do not have proper ID, something that we were previously protected from. To give you an idea of where that takes us, the SS used to detain people who did not have their “papers” with them.

you are very trusting

It’s a set of standards for state issued IDs so they all meet minimum “security” standards for entering federal buildings, flying, entering nuclear power plants, and probably crossing the border.

great post

that is the pretext

why would you accept the statements of the Federal Government at face value?

No, REAL ID does none of this.
I’m in for a national driver’s license. That would be fantastic.

i don’t see the relevance of your statement

its state-issued and complies with federal standards and presumably the Federal Government would maintain a centralized database

Yes, a great post full of mis and dis-information.

Yet another reason to give Obama a chance.

Yeah, bashing down state’s rights even further is fucking phenomenal.
National ANYTHING has the chance to be really…really bad

Or it’s just the next step up. Regardless of the fact that this country was originally created to have very limited federal government, lets all just accept that the states are just agents it now. The Real ID is nothing more then a false sense of security, will do no more to ‘protect’ you then a state issued ID and is quite obvious that there is an ulterior motive behind it. Fuck your tin foil hat.

Not to mention it would be a potential identify theft nightmare waiting to happen.

You don’t think such a database already exists?
Of course McCain supports it. He’s basically the polar opposite of conservative, and would love the govt to control everything.

Yeah, how tyrannical of the govt to take away the states’ rights to designate how old someone must be in order to drive.

OH THE HORROR.

No, Real ID will do little of anything to prevent terrorist attacks, and if you think that it won’t come to the point were you are required to carry your ID with you at all times when you leave the house, you are a fool with little concept of history, and have no idea just how far this government will reach.

Will it make my breakfast for me!?!

And though REAL ID certainly paves the way for legislation that will actually do something, REAL ID in and of itself doesn’t do shit.
Many advocacy groups and individual opponents of the Real ID Act believe that having a Real ID-compliant license may become a requirement for various basic tasks. Thus a January 2008 statement by ACLU of Maryland says: “The law places no limits on potential required uses for Real IDs. In time, Real IDs could be required to vote, collect a Social Security check, access Medicaid, open a bank account, go to an Orioles game, or buy a gun. The private sector could begin mandating a Real ID to perform countless commercial and financial activities, such as renting a DVD or buying car insurance. Real ID cards would become a necessity, making them de facto national IDs.” However, it should be noted that in order to perform many of those tasks, government-issued identification is already required

“Papers please”

did you even read the thread ? That part was removed before it passed

disprove his statements with facts

No, you fucking moron. REAL ID does nothing that you suggested. REAL ID does not establish a national ID, which would be a prerequisite to all of the tin foil bullshit you’ve posted. SCOTUS has already ruled in the past that no one can be required to present identification, and since REAL ID doesn’t change anything about the manner in which IDs are distributed, it’s not going to change a fucking thing about the prior SCOTUS ruling.

like a barcode ? or the scanning device on the back that most DL already have ? Or the holograms ?

REAL ID is not a national ID card. Not even close.

I support REAL ID, since it would be nice to have some fucking standardization of licenses for crossing the damn Canadian border. I hate having to carry my passport everywhere.

An actual national ID card? Hell no.

under what cirumstances?

i believe this applies only to people who are stopped on the street by police (while not operating a motor vehicle)

Disprove his tin foil hat bullshit view of the future with facts?

Most of those you already have to show your DL, there is no fucking difference.

No shit. Of course you can be required to present ID while operating a motor vehicle.

You need to have some form of government-issued ID to do almost all of those things anyway.

“details of which are not spelled out”

they always use incrementalism

first they get us on a common ID system

then later they will bring in the RFID

sure, and we already have that in our State-issued IDs

I personally don’t have a problem if the STATES decide to conform to the Federal standard

its the centralized databases I have a problem with

Your passport has a rfid. It’s good for about 6″ of signal

don’t be intentionally stupid

i obviously left that part there on purpose

you people are such knee-jerk reactors to everything its appalling

Something like 40 + states already share databases for tickets. And all of them share for more serious crimes.
this thread already became tin foiled up. time to lock.

I don’t have a passport and have no plans to obtain one

But I think its good to get the word out as many people don’t know about it

What do you think social security is? There is already a database; you’re not preventing anything. Also, again, REAL ID IS NOT A NATIONAL ID CARD. IT IS A SET OF STANDARDS FOR THINGS THAT STATE-ISSUED ID CARDS MUST POSSESS.

does the federal government have access?

:Arkansas:

…should the states decide to comply

Your point?

Why do you reply with smilies?

You’re jumping to conclusions that REAL ID is a national ID that will be required to take a piss in your own home, and I’M having knee jerk reactions?

What does Social Security have to do with this?

congrats, you will never experience the world.

For what reason ? The RFID sends out a certain code for 6″ or so. If you are concerned about a random person grabbing the info, wrap it in metal.

And if you are concerned about the officials scanning it, they already can SEE all the info. The only difference is to show that the words match the database.

When what you’ve posted is so unbelievable stupid to not warrant the use of verbiage to point out just how stupid it is.

You are impossible to talk to.

I haven’t jumped to ANY conclusions.
Think about it this will just be something else for someone to steal and use to fuck you. I hate giving my SS# out to people for stupid shit. For example in college we had to sign and print our name and write our SS# on a sign in sheet that would be passed around. That thing was “lost” many times. My professor does NOT need my SS# for attendence.

Also, this shit with banks wanting thumb/finger prints for “our security”. Why? Well, because a signature, with all the new technology, is very easy to forge and they need something else. Well, how long before forgeing someone’s fingerprints becomes common place? Then what? DNA, eye scan, ect. Eventually we will run out of things to prove who we are and at the same time make it VERY VERY easy to steal our identity.

So, No for the National ID card.

Federal police, FBI, etc… ? YES

social security and the IRS know if you worked at a denny’s for 1 hour.

Social Security is a national identification tool that can/does allow the federal government access to all your personal information.

You’re acting like some kind of ID card would create this horrible database which, gasp, already exists.

Ok, buddy.

Have fun never experiencing anything besides the USA.

You are aware that RFID are how toll traffic transponders work, right?

A typo pales in comparison to the idiocy you’ve posted thus far.

Sure, but it certainly didn’t start out for that purpose, did it?

I’m shocked that some of you can’t accept the POSSIBILITY of Real ID eventually becoming more than what is spelled out initially in the law.

So it’s not REAL ID standards you disagree with, it’s the federal government telling the states what their minimum requirements need to be?

Make your damn mind up.

The Supreme Court also ruled that DC can’t ban guns, and prevent lawful citizens from obtaining them, but that is exactly what the city government is still doing to this day. Real ID, does, or will do exactly what I have said, it is an invitation for abuse.

Have you actually read anything you’ve posted?

I’ve mostly copy and pasted from wiki

Who said we can’t accept the possibility?

A national ID card is DIFFERENT THAN REAL ID. It would need another legislative step to create a national ID card, and I would oppose it.

It really isn’t that complicated.

Yes, and their signals are a lot stronger. These are like keycards for access to buildings. They only work when you get right against the reader.

It wouldn’t be very difficult for it to be attached to a “must-pass” bill

Sorry, you’re simply wrong.

A national ID is a big fucking deal. It can’t just be tossed into something; it would be political suicide.
fuck no.

but there’s nothing we can do to stop it from happening, so
I can’t wait for my UPC tattoo and sub-dermal GPS chip implant. I live to serve my corporate masters here in the “Greatest Country In The World” the Media feeds me all of the information I need to make informed decisions about what my wonderful leaders have already decided I will do and use my hard earned money to do it. Maybe they will simply dangle some shiny new useless consumer product in front of me to distract me from the raping of my civil liberty, I love that too. To the corporate run American Empire, and death to any country that does not allow our fast food and consumer products to be sold to it… BASTARDS!

So is Real ID, and it was passed by being attached to a “must-pass” bill

No, the signals of the receivers are a lot stronger.

It wasn’t even a “must pass” bill. It was a bill for appropriating funds after the tsunami a few years ago.

No it’s not.

Changing how a state driver’s license looks != US Government issued ID card.

The fact that you can’t see a difference is pitiful.
And no, REAL ID is not a big fucking deal. IMO it’s an overstepping of federal bounds, but it’s absolutely not a big deal.

get your facts straight

the Real ID Act was subsequently attached by the House Republican leadership as a rider to H.R. 1268, a bill dealing with emergency appropriations for the Iraq War and with the Tsunami relief funding

It doesn’t even change how a state DL looks. It simply sets a bare minimum standard for the information on the DL and the security features to prevent duplications and counterfeiting.

Weird, I could have sworn that’s just what I posted. That doesn’t make it a “must pass” bill.

Obviously not everyone agrees with your viewpoint, including many of our lawmakers

No, you said nothing about emergency Iraq war funds

laugh all you want, but remember, I was the guy who told all you numb skulls what would happen if Bush was elected. The inflation, economic downturn, housing/mortgage crisis, rise in fuel prices, etc. Nobody believed me then either. Don’t believe me? See if the archives go back that far, but I remember posting about this in 99 (yes OT was around then) and again in 03. So really, I don’t care. Time has always been on my side.

would you prefer that I blindly trust the Government like you do?

How dare you people question the motives of our Corporate Imperial State!!! HOW DARE YOU! Like it or LEAVE IT! On your knees knaves!

Unfortunately, many Americans believe that our Government is Good and Loves us and has our Best Interests at heart

It does… and if you say different they will send you to the re-education camps in Cuba.

No, I’d prefer you actually do some research into the bullshit you spew instead of blindly trusting anyone as you do.

tinfoil hat crew is strong in this thread.

I have no problem with a National ID.

Or a one world government for that matter.

No, you weren’t. You’re the idiot that can’t spell that gets laughed at by people on both sides of the aisle because of how asinine 99% of what you write is.

You will serve your corporate masters well.

.

In less abusive language.

There’s a huge problem with a national ID, but tinfoil crew doesn’t realize that REAL ID is not a national ID.

I don’t believe that at all

Politicians are humans and humans are self-interested. They will do, in the end, what’s best for them.

That doesn’t in any way imply they go out of their way to subjugate you

what bullshit have I spewed?

you weren’t even here until 02, you fucking homo.

However, weren’t you one of the bush sackriders back in 03? Yeah look how well that worked out for you. Way to go ace, you got great skills at predicting what our leaders will do.
Just like with our current energy issues, the politicians will go the direction that the people have shown that they don’t want.

Me, a Bush sackrider?

Way to go shit for brains, great memory. And you really expect anyone to believe your claims of what you’ve said in the past.

You’ve suggested REAL ID is a national ID, that it’s a problem, that it was attached to a “must pass” appropriations bill, among other things.

not yet, but it’s a step closer. You seem to think this is just going to be the end of it, but it’s just a step in plans the federal government have had for decades.
DHS is a joke. Do they honestly think they’re stopping terrorists by taking laptops and random searches ?

REAL ID isn’t even necessarily a requirement for the states to change anything you immense fool.

Who would think someone from Massachusetts would be arguing anyone who even breathes a bad word about this nationalized toe tagging.

I’m sending this to DHS right now. Bet those boys didn’t even think about removing voting privileges.

You’re assuming DHS was created to stop terrorism .

i dont understand why this could be a bad thing at all. just a national drivers license.

Except it isn’t, and it would be a bad thing if it were.

Look idiot, I know exactly what Real ID does, in theory. It’s supposed to set minimum standards for ID’s issued by state, and federal agencies, blah, blah, blah, we get that already. Wow, you can read, thanks to hooked on phonics!

The PROBLEM, is that this law oversteps the bounds of the federal government, and and does not set any regulations on how the information, or IDs can be used, and it’s clearly taking steps in preparation for a system of National ID. It is an invitation for abuse, Real ID sets a dangerous precedent, sorry but if you can’t see where this is going, you are a fucking moron. I’m done with you know, go hose out your ass.

wat ?

Thank you for clarifying this sad truth.
… where are your papers ma’am… I mean… where’s your ID card?
Life would be so much simpler if we only barcoded Americans - say, on the back of the neck in an unobtrusive spot - at birth.

Wow, you really DON’T know what REAL ID does.

REAL ID has nothing to do with ID issued by federal agencies, and it isn’t even a requirement of state agencies. If states so choose, they may issue non-REAL ID-compliant identification, even after the deadlines that have already been moved back a few times.

Over stepping bounds? Sure. Setting a bad precedent? Of course. ACTUALLY doing anything? No.

Oh and not setting regulations on how the information or IDs can be used?

The people have the power.

Actually I know exactly what Real ID does, how it came through committee, and how is was back doored into law. I know the reasons why the dead line has been pushed back, and what else was originally attached to what some locals have described at “the alphabet soup bill of 2005″ Sure any state can choose not to comply, but guess what? Your DL will be pretty much worthless for “official purposes” as loosely described by the federal government. For example, if you ever want to fly again, you’ll be forced to get a passport if your state does not comply. Also it does NOT set limits on uses. Sorry, but you are blind if you don’t see where this is going.

I really don’t see why everyone keeps saying “forced to get a passport.”

Seems like something most people would willingly get

It’s amazing one can be in their mid 30s and still such a failure.
I don’t see the need for an expensive government program that doesn’t do anything the states couldn’t voluntarily do themselves.

My current drivers license is valid in every state of the union and I have a passport that acts as valid ID in almost every country on earth.

No need for Real ID.

actually I’m doing quite well thanks.

and everything I have described is EXACTLY what has happened with Real ID, or what the law requires. If your state does not comply with Real ID, you cannot use it for anything the Federal government considers “official purposes” such as boarding a plane.

Yes Jason, some people do more than just read wiki all day. The Washington Post has a big long article about this last year. Very detailed. Not to mention it was in all the fed news journals.

It was back doored on a much larger bill that covered everything from border security to tsunami relief. It was supposed to require states and government agencies to issue an ID with a uniform minimum standard, so that they can be accepted for official purposes as listed by the feds. However it’s really just turned into a clusterfuck powergrab like everything else backed by this administration.
78% of ot is engaged in iillegal activities or otherwise has something to hide

or perhaps some people believe in fiscal restraint and responsibility.

the downturn/mortgage crisis is coming down FROM A FUCKING HIGH POINT that was also under Bush.

safety is priceless

well however they got it through, Its still a pointless waste of money.

for everything else, there’s a national ID card.

i wouldn’t go that far…

it will keep terrorists out

Except there are no limitations TODAY how a DL/ID is used. This isn’t some huge change.

Allot of us saw it coming from miles away though. I remember Warren Buffet stating that if Bush was elected, it would be bad for the economy in the long run. That was in 99. However I remember having the discussion about China buying into our economy and how the debt bubble was going to burst and take down allot of people with it, and that was maybe 2002. Of course people on OT argued and argued as usual.

we wouldn’t have had to bother with giving bin laden’s driver 5 years if we’d had an ID card.

Wow, why hasn’t Goldman Sachs hired you yet and given you a 50 million dollar bonus?

With your Nostradamus-like predictive abilities you should be the wealthiest man on Earth.

You’ve misrepresented a number of things entailed in REAL ID. So far, about the only thing you’ve gotten is that it requires compliant IDs for government business such as boarding a plane or entering a federal building.

China owns less then 5% of our debt. That’s it. Stop using them as a fucking example of anything.

Except the economy rose higher then it was ever under Clinton. Then it slowed down. THE HORROR. I’ll even bet it will rise and fall again in the next 10 years.

The problem is that nobody right now would deny your DL if say you went to a bank, or tried to rent a car. However after Real ID is in full implementation, there is the very real possibility that you might not be able to use your DL/ID for these things, if your state does not comply with Real ID, and that is a problem. There is nothing that prevents this scenario from happening. It’s one step closer to a national ID.

This just in: REAL ID has repealed all laws in the 50 states defining what are and are not acceptable forms of identification.

and the debt bubble has pushed defaults to the highests it’s been in 30+ years. Look, I’m not going to go back, on all these old arguments from fucking 4-6 years ago. If you want to bother searching for them, be my guest. However I WAS right in stating that this was going to happen before the Bush term was out. It wasn’t even my opinion in the first place, I was just putting together the various opinions of others and posting it back out.

not all 50 states are going to comply with Real ID.

finally someone understands

REAL ID has nothing to do with what is acceptable form of ID for renting a car, going to a bank, etc.
Considering 20 states have actively passed statutes PROHIBITING the implementation of the Real ID, one has to wonder how good an idea this actually is….

I vote a great big FUCK NO to Real ID and anything like it that puts this country on such an unconstitutional slippery slope. The 50 or so people that voted for Real ID in this poll are woefully uninformed or too stupid to understand the full ramifications of a national database that houses every Americans fundamental identity information yet is poorly protected against abuse.

Show me your papers, citizen!

uh, the information was already being presented back then by experts who were warning about the amount of debt we were in. It’s not like I studied the graphs, read the trends, and looked into a crystal ball. Sorry but when you read this sort of thing in the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post, back in then, it’s not like any of whats going on now should have been a surprise. Anybody paying attention would have seen this shit coming.

Because it’s an unnecessary waste of money and an unnecessary power grab of the feds from the states.

And yet you’re still busting your hump instead of getting rich on all these things you knew years in advance.

because if you don’t, I will punch that hideous thing on your leg.

uh huh….

and yet in most cases there is nothing that prevents anybody from only accepting an ID that is compliant with Real ID.

Hematoma I got a black eye last week. Still a little swollen shut.

ouch

Busting my hump doing what again? I gave up working for the government because it was driving me up the fucking wall. I do what I love, and make decent money doing it. I get to see some of the best shows in town, while making money. If I’m not doing that, I’m polishing some seat with my ass fixing simple computer problems, made hard by assholes who should be electrocuted. I’d hardly call what I do “busting my hump”.

What do you do that so fucking great? You haven’t even accomplished a fraction of what I have kid, so I wouldn’t talk if I was you.

Don’t take OT’s explanation of the situation, here’s the Governor of Montana to explain it (note that he’s not the only one, a quick Google search yields hundreds of articles and pages in opposition of this act by all levels of government)

And among other issues with the whole thing, you might want to check out the Tenth Amendment of the Bill of Rights:

anyway with that, I’m out of here. Got better things to do tonight than argue pretty much the same point with Jason, simply because he’s a faggot.

Busting your hump doing ANYTHING you stupid asshole. If you were actually on the level with all these things you knew back in ‘99, you’d have been able to retire by now.
they want an ID scheme here

it’s going to cost billions
has been proven to be insecure
they’ve lost the details of every person claimign child benefit already so cant keep info secure

luckily this government is on its way out and the opposition will remove it
and the excuse used is the terrorism thing, as if a terrorist attack won’t happen because they didn’t have an ID card

here, you forgot this:

thats basically what the Governor of Montana said in the link posted above

this won’t make us any safer

not if mccain gets elected

see my location

you guys are ahead of us in the race to the police state it appears

although i agree that the amount of CCTV is excessive, alot of it is owned by private companies. There is alot of public support for it over here as it has solved crimes. Personally I disagree with it

Personally I agree that if you are convicted of violent crime/sexual assault/robbery your DNA should be taken to ensure that older crimes can be linked and future crimes can be solved quicker. However at the moment its set up so anyone arrested (even if innocent) will have their DNA taken.

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