UMD Libertarians

hich there is no return. Future generations are going to get lazier and lazier. More and more will live off the government and expect them to be the answer to everything. You will have more poor popping out babies creating more idiots. Society will become less responsible for themselves. Barak has said that college is a right for all Americans. Do you really want a college degree to mean nothing? To lower standards and go into more unnecessary debt with little to no return? There are going to be more and more living off the productivity of a few and that few will become less and less. Fuck Obama and fuck McCain.

If they lower standards then thats teh only way the degree will be lessened. Of course its probably the next step in the process.
that is the way of liberalism and obama is rated so far to the left it is not funny

You’re making a lot of claims that you conviniently have no source for.

Isn’t it odd that every election year you hear all of these negative connotations about the Democrats - socialism, welfare, etc.? It’s ironic because they usually work and when the Republicans take office things are horrible.

Oh well, enjoy lying to yourself.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

Personal responsibility is at an all-time high. There have been like no corporate scandals in the last eight years. Look at people pulling themselves up from the bootstraps and earning more than they did last year. Look at how government has stopped expanding under six years of a conservative government. Ask anyone about the bountiful budget surpluses! Look at the growth of new jobs that has overshadowed any of that bullshit Clinton managed.

oh wait……
Damn. None of that happened. My apologies.

"conviniently?"
How subjective can our terms be? ok, define horrible, elaborate.

I’m extremely concerned about Obama’s absolute lack of any experience pertaining to the military, and a simple withdrawal is not the solution.

I’ve been preoccupied with staff meetings and now class, but what I gather.. sadly, maybe lesser of two evils again, but I keep hearing intentions and promises to make me "feel good" from Obama. I haven’t heard any concrete plans or alternatives.

At least with McCain’s speech where he described where we’d be in four years, you have a checklist of things by which to physically evaluate his term. *shrug*

You do realize that the Republican nominee is John McCain, JUNIOR … and not his father the admiral, right?

McCain’s "military experience" as mostly a peon would have nearly zero bearing as a president.

Lacking intelligence, continuing a pointless war, celebrating John McCain’s birthday whilst thousands of people are displaced due to Katrina, etc.

I’m extremely concerned with McCain’s absolute lack of any experience pertaining to the economy. Second, apparently Obama, the Iraq government and the Bush administration are all in agreement that withdrawal is the solution.

What do you propose? We keep nation-building and set up a permanent base there? Because if we don’t then we just handed tens of billions of dollars to a nation that absolutely hates us despite what the media tells you and we’re not going to see any return on that invesment.

That’s because you’re listening to speeches instead of doing some research. Go to his website, go to factcheck.org, find bills he’s passed, etc.

First, I want to mention the pathetic nature of the McCain campaign. They call Obama presumptive for going to Iraq and meeting with troops and McCain is giving checkpoints to relax voters.

Anyway, McCain can continue to spew a bunch of bullshit about following bin Laden to the gate’s of hell but he’s not even focusing any attention on Afghanistan/Pakistan, he’s focusing all of his attention on Iraq and Iran. Can it be any more obvious that he’s full of shit?

My source are the marines and army officers and NCOs on campus that I run into every day as I go to class. One of my good buddies, in the reserves, spent the last year with the Marines and just got back for the next 18 months. You talk to them. They feel that they’re doing the right thing there. It’s a fucked up situation, with the ROE, but I haven’t heard any complain we shouldn’t be there.
the difference between McCain and Obama is whether the money will go to Americans or Iraqis. Damned either way, so might as well go with the poison that gives back to this country

…and what military experience do you have to warrant being concerned? I assume you’d make this statement based on your knowledge and genuine concern.
yeah McCain’s military experience is a joke, how is the experience of being a grunt soldier translate to leading the country’s entire military?

cool anecdote hansel

even if 100% of military personnel felt we should be in Iraq, it doesn’t make it true.
funny how the last meaningful welfare reform came under another "liberal" president, Clinton.
if i’m not mistaken, obama actually mentioned the words, "welfare to work" verbatim in his speech tonight

with a republican congress. He vetoed the bill twice before it passed.

and democrats hated him for it

because it was ineffective BS. one of his fucking campaign platforms in 92 was to reform welfare, don’t revise history and act like it was shoved down his throat.

from a 92 ad campaign:

"For so long government has failed us, and one of its worst failures had been welfare. I have a plan to end welfare as we know it — to break the cycle of dependency. We’ll provide education, job training, and child care, but then those who are able to work must go to work…. It’s time to make welfare what it should be — a second chance, not a way of life.”

yeah you know clinton, one of the most hated democrats in the history of the party. that man can’t show his face near a convention

congress reformed welfare not clinton.
due to clinton’s bill, welfare rolls are down 57% since the passing of that bill

Doesnt change the fact that they hated him for the bill. He was a great president for them but they certainly hated that he signed that bill into law.

well the president cannot singlehandedly write and pass laws, if that’s what you mean, but it was a major plank in his campaign platform. it was something he wanted done from the beginning. to even argue this point simply means you don’t know what you’re talking about.

how can you give him credit for it if he couldn’t pass the bill until congress was controlled by the republicans. Only then was welfare reform possible, we just had two years of congress doing nothing and clinton had the same problem when he took the presidency in 92

the point of this thread is that obama is going to expand welfare because he’s a democrat, even though he has said he will not do that. i was pointing out the fact that the last democratic president actually reduced the welfare rolls by more than half, so the idea that just because he’s a democrat means more welfare doesnt hold water.

go back and listen to his speech and look for all the new handouts he wants to give. Thats welfare.

helping kids go to college may fall under the umbrella term of "welfare" but it’s a worthwhile cause that could end up improving our position in the world greatly. we are a laughingstock right now among nations like china and japan who are producing all of the new technology.

just one example

But, it’s OBVIOUS that the fiscal conservatives don’t run up government spending.

the Republicrats have created the illusion of choice

there is no choice in the context of the Democratic-Republican system as it current exists

our only hope is to elect a third party or independent candidate

why are we Americans so stupid and accept the two candidates the television gives us? we have a choice but we choose not to exercise our power

Great cartoon

THAT IS AN OUTRAGEOUS LIE THAT IS TOTALLY SUPPORTED BY THE FACTS!!!

worthwhile cause? do you have any idea what sending more and more ppl to college will do to the worth of a diploma?

newsflash the diploma is already a commodity, which is why every single person who doesn’t have it is essentially fucked to work at mcdonalds.

Lets just hand them out with highschool diplomas then everyone can be doctors! We won’t even need garage men anymore! Everyone can save babies and be rich! Brilliant!

you of course realize that garbage men make close to $100,000 a year right?

they make good money in some bigger cities but that doesn’t spread country wide and besides you are side stepping the point.

Wait wait wait… what’s the problem if more people have college degrees?

On the one hand, republicans/conservatives argue that Obama/democrats are gonna create a welfare state with more lazy people. On the other hand, republicans/conservatives are arguing against more people getting college degrees (i.e. less lazy people/more educated and well-qualified workers).

You can’t have both. Either Obama wants a welfare state or he doesn’t.
More people with college degrees =/= a welfare state.

Think deeper into the subject. Diplomas don’t equal more available jobs. It just means more debt and making college worthless.

Newsflash, anyone can get a highschool diploma if they try. Anyone can get a college degree if they are motivated. Financial aid is easy to get (student loans, grants…). State colleges are fairly easy to get into. You might have to apply to more than one school, but it can be done. You can also work while going to college.

College degree’s are not even necessary, but they help open some doors early on. Many people don’t even work in the same field that they got their degree in.

Having a high school diploma pretty much states that you are not a worthless loser. Having a college degree pretty much states that you are motivated. I don’t think we should just hand out diplomas. People need to put in effort and be motivated to get them.

The funny thing is I find that college degree’s are more necessary for artistic jobs than technical jobs. When looking at resume’s, we tend to focus on experience rather than school. Two of my best employees are self taught and do not have a college degree.

The case may be that things can’t go much further in the direction of socialism because we are already heading at full speed toward a hyperinflationary depression.

Classic anti-liberal argument that if you bothered to look up his policies, you would see you are dead wrong. Obama can’t turn this country into a welfare state, so just stop.

The issue isn’t paying for college itself, it’s being able to pay off loans from creditors and lenders who don’t give a fuck about you.

I think you’re right, although I see a distinct difference between:

Handing out diplomas/degrees to everyone
and
Enabling more capable people to get diplomas/.degrees through government assistance

Obviously, handing them out easier devalued the qualification which is stupid. But if there are capable people who need a bit of assistance from the government, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Statistically, graduates earn more over a lifetime so they’re almost certain to pay back more in taxes.. think of it as an investment.

To me, THAT is what welfare should be - helping people to help themselves, not handing stuff to people on a plate.

But people can already get diplomas… if they’re motivated. If they can make it through high school, as far as I know it is illegal for a state school in their state of residence to reject their application. As much as I don’t care for the government side of it, there are already loans available from the government and from private lending institutions to get people to school. Since the beginning of the history of American higher education there have been scholarships available through all kinds of different people, some based on merit and some based on perceived need. And for better or for worse, our rapidly-expanding interest as a nation with college sports has made athletic scholarships (and scholarships in adjacent fields, say for example marching band) richer and more common.

In other words, if a degree represents motivation, we need to either trim BACK some of what’s offered, or leave it the way it is. Anyone can get a degree if they want one at this point.

And the issue of, if everyone has one, they’ll be worth less … that’s extremely relevant.
Well if what you said (about people being able to get a degree if they want one) then that’s fine.. things should stay the same. I don’t know the exact situation in the US. But if there are capable people who could get into college but can’t afford it etc, then I think they should be helped out.

And as someone with a degree, I don’t want it de-valued any more than you do!
You might not be able to afford an ivy league school but a state school is no problem with student loans.

Well, it does take some effort and some motivation to acquire the money. It’s not just handed to you. As far as I’m concerned, that’s about half of what the value of the degree is … it’s not like high school where you just show up and the rest more or less falls into place.

But if a person genuinely wants to attend college, and is motivated to do so, there’s no reason why they can’t get their foot in the door. Then all they have to do is be able to keep their grades decent. (There are those who are simply too far behind the curve to take even that relatively light intellectual load. I’m sure you realize this, of course, which is yet another reason why it’s a little troubling to think of "everyone" having a college education.)
Yeah, that’s fair enough - and no, I don’t think everyone should have a degree.. most jobs don’t need one.

and that is pretty much how I summed up this election year

they both suck, but hey why not go for the one who will waste the money on ourselves

we’re not talking about "everyone"

we’re talking about kids who are smart enough to go to top schools, but because of their parent’s failings they cannot. that’s not fair, and if the government can find money to give CEOs huge tax breaks every quarter, then they sure as shit can find some cash for smart kids in the inner city to attend college and make a better life for themselves.
^^ Exactly. We’re not giving Suzie Slut and Carrie Cockgobbler free passes at education since they don’t want it, it’s for the people who are qualified enough already. You can’t get into a school with just having money, you need to have at least some degree of competency

I KNOW!

And I agree.. I said exactly the same thing a few posts ago! Capable people should be able to go, even if they can’t afford it by themselves. Jason assures me that capable people CAN go if they want… I don’t know the exact situation in the US though.

there are roads but it’s not a guarantee. what i take from obama’s speeches is that he wants to ENSURE every qualified kid can go to college, and increase funding for federal grants and loans to make it possible.

Related posts:

1. In this thread, you will post LOGICAL reasons for voting for _______ That's right...list LOGICAL reasons. Not emotional reasons. I have yet to meet ONE fucking person who can give me a...
2. Ron Paul Plans ‘Special Announcement’ Rep. Ron Paul, the former Republican presidential candidate who excited a multitude of young voters during the primaries, announced...
3. Obama’s Economic plan = income redistribution Obama's 'emergency' economic plan By: August 1, 2008 10:53 AM EST Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) on Friday announced an...
4. obama or mccain: who’s more "out of touch" with the average american i was thinking about this yesterday. we deride polticians for being "out of touch"... fuck, i'm out of touch with...
5. Ludacris Obama Rap and Obama responds I'm waiting for Tupac to mention Obama ...or McCainAs Barack Obama has said many, many times in the past, rap...