UMD Libertarians

My God. China is so evil. That government is so bad. I can’t believe how people have sold there souls to the Chinese government.

I mean, what a great bunch of guys. They build the schools so substandard that they fall down in a quake where other shacks are left standing.
Then the government gives you permission to replace your lost valuables (under there one child policy) that you lost in the quake.

That is so fucking wrong.
But I think it paints a pretty accurate picture of how the Chinese government views there citizens. There citizens are commodities. Nothing else.

That blows…

Agreed….but its no different than how big corporations view their employees

mmmmmmmkay. I look at the news, see bridges in the US that just collapse on interstates, I see the devastation in New Orleans, I see the failure of government "watchdogs" to protect us…but the Chinese are evil because a contractor built a school to substandard spec.

Very even handed of you.

And I certainly don’t support the Chinese government.

It has been a hundered years since we had an earthquake that did the damage that was done in China.

Besides, you don’t need PERMISSION to replace your dead kids in the US.
That just takes this to a new level.
I don’t agree with a lot of China’s policies. But they are a big, powerful and populous country and my opinion means nothing to them. They have the right to do what they see fit.

I like China in many ways. They have a "stay out of our business and we’ll stay out of your business" attitude.

I was referring to your comments, and Katrina wasn’t that long ago.
This thread is fucking idiotic. First, abny city in the US that had anything like a close to surface 7.8 would be in fucking ruins. Absolutely destroyed. It would not only collapse buildings, but entire freeway structures as well.

Second, its a good thing to allow exceptions to the OCP. How not?
Has anyone considered what would happen if the government allowed people to pop out as many children as they wanted? They already have a hard time as it is to feed their billion or so people, throwing another quarter billion on top of that would not help…

Find me a surface 7.8 near a major city in the US in the past 100 years. They don´t exist. the biggest one near a city in recent history was in Cali near Northridge in 94. It was a 6.7, and only lasted 15 seconds. Lets be clear here. The richter scale is exponential. The Chinese Earthquake, ignoring its longer duration, and ignoring that it occured close to the surface, and ignoring that it happend near a big city, was more than TEN times as powerful and lasted longer.

We haven´t had a similair earthquake in a hundred years, minus in bumfuck Alaska with no buildings of people, so its real fucking easy to make your comparison. When a 7.8 hits a US city, it will be fucking destruction.

Katrina was an earthquake?

The OCP is itself an act of evil. The idea that there are circumstances where exceptions should be granted just helps to illustrate how incredibly evil the OCP is.
I don’t know if the buildings are ’substandard’ or not, but even if they are, strictly speaking, could China afford to build all of them to a particular safety standard?

what’s better- no buildings at all, or buildings that will come down in a quake, but at least you have a roof over your head?

It is a little known fact that yes, Katrina was an earthquake.
Of course, this is depending on your definition of earthquake.

Of course, Katrina doesn’t compare to this.
Go here:

It says Katrina was responsible for 1836 deaths. If you count the 705 missing as deaths then the total comes to 2541 people.

This paragraph from the article I quoted in the original link puts things in perspective about the earthquake:

62,000 people are dead.

So no, Katrina DOESN’T compare. Katrina isn’t in the same ballpark, it isn’t in the same league.

It has been a long time since the US has seen a disaster of this magnitude. I am not even sure we have ever had such a disaster.
There was an earthquake back in the 1800’s in California that might have compared.

There is a problem with this.

1. The type of government China is it is the government themselves that are responsible for a lot of the buildings - especially the schools (which the article is about).
You can’t say, ‘Well the government recommended they do such and such and they didn’t do it…’. The government has taken this task on its own shoulders - that leaves them as being the only ones responsible.

2. China desperately wants to be taken seriously as a superpower. What sort of superpower are they that they cannot even bring there people to a standard of living where 62,000 of them won’t die in an earthquake?
Yes the earthquake was severe, but that is a mind numbing number. If there infrastructure is in that poor of shape then maybe China needs to not worry about the Olympics and see what it can do about getting its own infrastructure in order.
The biggest threat today is over population, and China is being proactive on that front.
We should be grateful the Chinese government has the power to stop that.
Unfortunately, the rest of the developing world is breeding the same as they always have.
If Africans would be as responsible, we wouldn’t be feeding millions of them because of land degradation and overpopulation, and South America and India could do with some enforced sterilizations.
Islam, Hinduism and Catholicism, are the biggest problems facing the survival of the human race, along with entrenched bias for big families, we should be grateful to many better educated Indians who at least abort female fetuses.
As was pointed out, a 7.9 earthquake is formidable, how well is the infrastructure going to hold up in California, when the big one hits.
It may cause more than the highways to collapse on to each other.

You do realize that many countries are adopting such plans? China would grow to over 2 billion people without OCP. Its hard enough to manage the population they have.

I know it promotes a decrease in population, but that doesn’t much matter.
government should plan more things, its worked AWESOME in the past

Spoken like a good lib.
If the government says that it is for the benefit of the people then it must be correct.
If two governments like the idea then doubly so.

It is good that our government cannot do this, cause this is the sort of thing that would cause me to take up arms against the government.

funny you should say that, as events unfold in texas it appears the government is trying to impose a "zero child policy" on members of certain religious groups…

I have been involved in several threads expressing my distaste for what the government is doing in Texas.
In fact, it was kind of PC around here to support the government in that case for a while. A ‘for the children’ sort of thing.
There was vengence, me and someone else that would speak out against it.
Then that ruling happened last week and suddenly it looks like everyone was against it all along.

it’s just a 7.8 at the epicenter, it’s not just all of china shaking at a 7.8 on the scale. and there are several instances where the buildings surrounding a school are mostly unharmed and the school just completely collapsed
agree on both your points.

I like the idea of one child per family… keeps the bigots, ultra-religious and the generally stupid from infesting the world with their offspring

Do you really think Katrina was an earthquake, or a reasonably comparable natural disaster? At tleast the closest we have. Don’t be idiotic.

If we had a 7 or a 7.5 we would NOT loose 62,000 people.
It would be bad, but it wouldn’t be that bad.
I’m sure if a major earthquake happened here the devastation would be similar. Hopefully due to our immense wealth relative to China’s our buildings would hold up better… but that was one big ass quake. Of all reasons to call China evil this isn’t one. As far as I know they are doing a decent job trying to help the survivors and get them back on their feet.

1 child per person has a lot of downsides… but I am pretty sure if they didn’t have that policy their population would have boomed so much more by now that they’d be more impoverished and *gasp* their buildings would be even less well built and the death toll that you are decrying in your first segment would have been magnitudes greater than what happened in this quake.

Silly bloke.

Really? OK…let’s try to guess what would happen if there were a 7.8 earthquake centered on Los Angeles.
woo hoo, laypeople making absurd predictions about the effects of seismic activity, this KICKS ASS!

Maybe 10,000. Maybe.
Don’t forget that Katrina was one of this countries biggest natural disasters ever and even that was just over 2,000.

But 60,000 people is a stupid number. It is just unfathomably big.

I found that awful earthquake. It was the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906.

It’s magnitude we between 7.7 and 8.3.

It killed between 700 and 2800 people:

Remember, it was this earthquake that brought in an era building codes to protect about earthquakes.

So no, under no circumstances do I see the US taking a hit of 60,000 people due to a 7 magnitude earthquake.
To have an earthquake in the U.S. that even got anywhere near to approach those numbers of deaths, it would have to be somewhere like New York or Chicago where the buildings are old, the population dense, and little history of seismic activity.

Also, in the area of China that is affected, many roads are completely destroyed and make it impossible for anyone to get ground access.

The majority of China’s population is in the east and in the major centers. China is a big country with hugely unpopulated areas.

75000+ died in the Kashmir earthquake in 05.

Its just not the same as America. But the Chinese gov’t care deeply about the safety of its citizens. They are getting in there to help them, but only so much can be done.
China is not a rich country yet - they don’t have the money or resources to build their schools up to US standards. To think otherwise is incredibly naive of you. I spent a summer in Tibet working for an NGO and one large portion of the NGO’s mission was to build new schools in rural Tibetan villages, which I’m sure are similar in quality to those found in Sichuan. The vast majority of these schools are made of concrete and mud, hardly materials that would stand up in such a large earthquake. What compounds this problem is that these materials are incredibly heavy, so if a building does collapse, the probability of survival is pretty low. Its not the best situation, but its sure better than not building any schools at all.

Also, I agree that the OCP has incredible problems, but you can’t fault the Chinese government for trying to control their population. The amount of people in China is ridiculous, particularly in light of China’s rather limited resources. People blame China for having too large of a population, but they also blame China when they try to control their population. It seems like a lose-lose situation for the Chinese government.
And to put this in earthquake in perspective, the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake in China killed 270,000 people.

in the case mentioned in the nyt, the school had completely collapsed while the kindergarten next door was fine and the (still public) school for richer kids was in such good shape it was being used as a base by recovery workers

Its tough to make reasonable assessments from tidbits of informations like that when you don’t know the background info (when the schools were built, etc). My school district is one of the richest in the US and we still have some HS that haven’t been renovated since the 1960s while others have were newly built as of one year ago. Theres a lot of variance, I’m sure its the same thing in China.

So not letting them have another kid is right? Wtf are you smoking?

What puzzles me is why doesn’t the Chinese government just eradicate half the population?

I mean, all you OCP apologists out there, ‘Oh you wouldn’t believe how many people there are. The government has to do SOMETHING. Good thing for the Chinese government, cause only they could be wise enough and brave enough to handle a problem like this!’, all you apologists must realize that there is a far quicker and more economical way of dealing with this problem.

I say, first you kill all the people that are acused of any crime whatsoever.
Blamm.
Then you kill every other poor person. Take out 50% of the poor population.

Then you let your population breed, but be sure to keep your heels firmly on the back of there neck as they grow back.

I mean, the only way anyone could possibly support OCP is if you have an ‘ends justifies the means’ mentality. Well this idea gets you there quicker and it is cheaper.

But then again, maybe that is why the substandard construction? 60,000 dead is nothing to sneeze at.
I say it is a blessing in disguise.

Can I have 3 cheers for 60,000 dead?!!!!

Your right it just isn’t the same in America.
In America we give enough of a crap about the population to not let things get so out of control that 1.3 million people die in earthquakes in a 3 year period.

Damned right it isn’t the same. We give a shit.

heil hitler

Are you suggesting this happened in china?

OCP is evil. It is wrong. If you agree with it then you are wrong and evil as well.

Exactly.

But he was suggesting that ZCP is better.

And that has nothing to do with OCP. One is population control and the other is democide. There are several species that practice population control in the wild.

nobody blames china for having too large a population, thats absurd…

well, from a global perspective, its easy to blame them. I mean, you got 1.x billion people who know want AC in their house, a vehicle and expensive household appliances. They all use power. That means more coal is being charred to produce the power, thus increasing emissions. The country is already limited now by lack of resources. It could do away with some of its population to ease this a bit.

For whatever reason, China wants to hold back their population and stop it from ballooning out of control.

Check this link for an idea of how many kids are being made per couple in other countries

And not everyone in China is limited. I do believe those living in rural areas are exempt. Immigrants are also exempt I think. Even those that break the rule are subject to extra taxes and sometimes jail time.

Either way, no one is in any position whatsoever to tell China what is right or wrong for its country. Maybe you should worry about the tyranny that is happening in your own country. Whatever China is doing, it is not drawing massive amounts of outrage from the rest of the world. Perhaps it is because China only worries about China.

You might want to read up on this:

There is an end to be met here. It makes perfect sense to me.
Look, I’m not supporting the OCP in China. I know that there are some pretty severe consequences of OCP on Chinese society and way of living, including an increasing imbalance between men and women and the destruction of the traditional Chinese family structure and by connection, a large part of China’s "social net" for older people. However, the policy does at least logically makes sense. China already has 1.3 billion people - their carrying capacity can’t be too much higher than that. They have so many social issues to worry about that in their view, the OCP is justified, and I can’t blame them.

To put things into perspective, if you take into account the number of people who are migrating from rural areas to urban areas in China, China will have to build a city the size of NYC every 14 months to keep pace. That is absolutely ridiculous.
And with regards to your suggestion that the Chinese government kill all criminals, China has one of the highest execution rates in the world IIRC, so I think they’re well on their way.
Also, if you do research on developmental economics, you’ll notice that forecasts suggest that the largest growth in population in the future will be in areas such as sub-Saharan Africa and other places that are least able to sustain such growth. The growth rates in the US, Europe, Japan, and other industrialized nations will have leveled off. Overpopulation will be one of the key problems of our generation. The Chinese government with the OCP is trying to buck such a trend.
no they are trying to maintain their government control, a naturally rising population would make even their version of communism totally unfeasible

oh good another end justifies the means leftist moron
i was just thinking god damn this board could do with more pol pot sympathizers
If you wanted to read about extreme birth control practices, you’ll be interested to know that India, the world’s largest and most diverse democracy, under Indira Gandhi instituted forced vasectomies on many of the poor and mentally handicapped living in slums in the 1970s.

usa did it too

That is until they become powerful enough to start their global invasion.
no such thing as overpopulation.

Uh, how the hell do you protect a structure from a monster surge of water? And please dont mention New Orleans, it was much more violent here.

it may have said something about that, i got bored and stopped reading

because if the ends justify one means they justify all means?

cool logical fallacy, aristotle

. lol

8.4 decent sized city

89 in SF was 7.2
1906 earthquake was the last HUGE one for a major city. ~7.8 but the fire did most of the damage.

When a population is consuming more resources than can be replaced, it’s overpopulation. We’ve already hit that mark.

no I don’t think it was comparable to what has happened in china. not at all.

By building the levies properly?

Failure of the government was there though.
well since some resources are non renewable then 1 person consuming them is overpopulation.

what about the creation/development of new resources? or conversely, what about reducing resource consumption?

overpopulation doesn’t exist.

Actually one person could be considered overpopulation if there isn’t enough resources to sustain that person. Most if not all of the non renewable resources are not necessary to live. I’m talking about food, plants, animals, etc.

Key term here is sustainability.

Oh hi!

I just upgladed your raundry.
I would agree with you if we were talking about animals, but humans don’t have a particular habitat. We can survive almost anywhere. We can change which resources we use, create new ones, increase capacity, or decrease usage. We can import and export resources. I’ll grant you that in a literal sense there is ‘overpopulation’ but this isn’t due to any factors that can’t be mitigated. The ‘overpopulation’ in Africa only exists because the infrastructure is insufficient - with the right people running the place, there would be no overpopulation. Just because oil is going to run out at some point doesn’t mean that people cant/wont find another resource.

I remember the BBC actually praising China straight after the earthquake because of how well organised they were and how fast they mobilised help.

i dont see how that relates to this thread

Umm how is china’s government failing right now?

I was comparing the amount of deaths and the amount of devastation to the affected region. I believe china’s disaster is much more significant than katrina for a multitude of reasons. Namely the amount of houses, towns, industry, and people who have been wiped off the face of the earth.
The Chinese Govt. Fails in alot of things…especially along the roads of human rights…..but there is no way in hell they could have prepared for a quake of this magnitude

Thats not what I was talking about and I think the entire world other than Math is aware of this.

How would you rate their response to the quake? I think from what I’ve read so far its been pretty decent.

I wasn’t talking about the Chinese government’s failure. The OP was making a comment about how horrible the Chinese government was because of the number of deaths, which he blamed directly on the government. I was pointing out the similarity here, although I personally don’t blame either federal governemnt. It just seemed hypocritical.

Are you just plain stupid or something? Apparently earthquakes are now the fault of governments? Katrina was America’s fault!
the 1 child policy thing is blown way out of proportion.
You have to take in the historical context when are you judge china’s decision to go 1 child per couple.

Briefly summarized.

In the 50’s, Mao encouraged couples to have multiple children. He proclaimed China’s population as the greatest resource and countermeasure against western imperialism. As a consequence, a Chinese woman was having 5-7 children on average back then. When the 70’s rolled around, the number of people reaching working age are quickly out-pacing the number of jobs and employment opportunities available. And unemployment rate was shooting through the roof.

Therefore, China started 2 or 3 separate propaganda campaigns discouraging against having multiple children. Off the top of my head, one of the propaganda campaigns said something along the lines of two is enough and three is too many. Another one encouraged couples to wait as long as possible before having their second children. However, all these campaigns ended in failure as the population continued to grow and increase at an unsustainable rate. In the 80’s, the premier at the time argued against overpopulation. He argued that, for China to move into the modern age, the government will have to conduct a drastic measure and curb China’s ballooning population for at least 25-30 years. As a result, the one-child policy came about.

Since then, the policy has been relaxed to an extent. Now, ethnic minorities and people in rural areas are allowed to have multiple children (especially if the first child is female). Also, the rich are starting to skirt the policy as well since they can afford the fines. Nevertheless, the CCP recently claimed that it had no intention of removing the 1-child policy anytime soon.

I think fairly well…..

The next test is the after shocks

Because people are bashing china for things which they acually managed quite well.

Not to mention the katrina incident in the US. Yes, they are different scales and different events but the US made a complete and utter fuck up of Katrina, yet the Chinese were amazingly well prepared after this earthquake.

I think their population would be smaller if they didn’t have that. I doubt that they would be able to sustain another billion or so people.
So you would rather they not allow them to replace their kid? Population control like that makes sense. California should consider it.

You get your info from Fox News, so I’m guessing you’re a right-wing card-carrying member of the God Squad and you probably refuse to use birth control. As such, it’s not too surprising that you don’t seem to care that China has a billion fucking people and they don’t have room for any more. They have to control their population, and at least they’re doing it through laws instead of wars, like we prefer.

I think it’s quite respectable of them to say people who lost their child can have another one. It shows that their government still has a shred of humanity left.

You missed my point.
I have two points to make.
The first one is that the one child policy is such a barbaric disregard for modern human rights that it puts the government in a position where they actually have to grant people permission to replace there dead children. Treating there children like some sort of commodity.

My second poing is that China wants to be a superpower. They want all the rights and priveledges that go along with being a superpower.
But they are unwilling - incapable of meeting the most basic responsibilities of being a superpower.

In this case that responsibility is to its own citizens.
The US has earthquake regions that are just as susceptable to big quakes as any region in China. We have actually HAD big quakes like what China just had. Our government has risen to meet the responsibility of protecting its citizens in these areas by enforcing strict building codes.

China is unwilling to do this. How can we respect China as a superpower when they are unable to protect there citizens?
You say that 64,000 deaths from one catastrophe is such a big number that no other country in the world can relate. I call bullshit on that. I think that other countries don’t have calamaties like this for very good reasons - building codes being just one.

….because several million people would starve to death? Which is China to do?
They can:
a) limit the number of births per couple, slowly decreasing or halting the rate of population growth and be called monsters.
b) allow people to have 4+ children per household and when unable to support their population, several million people starve to death and be called monsters.
Considering the difficulties they have had in the past feeding their population, they are doing the best they can to prevent further disasters. Not only is it a matter of food, but of other natural resources.

I wasn’t endorsing either plan. I am obviously against limiting the number of children that people can have, but if I were in a position to change that policy, I wouldn’t. The people of China ought to change that on their own when they’re good and ready.

The people of China do not get to decide shit.
The government makes all of there decisions for them. The people may very well be good and ready, but policies like the OCP make sure the government boot heals are on the back of there necks.
or they can ditch communism and grow their economy so that it can support the additional people.

this is where our government is headed

George Bush is signing away your rights behind closed doors

And you are 100% certain capitalism will solve all their problems? There isn’t enough natural resources on this planet to support .75 billion more people adopting a Western standard of living.
sure there are. The US alone could produce enough food to feed the entire world. China is still heavily reliant upon outdated technology. As their economy grows, technology will improve and they will be able to feed a larger population.

Nope.
But I am 100% certain that Communism can’t solve all there problems.
It has been tried in the past - and it failed.

Face it, capitalism has a better track record.

What are you gonna do when he isn’t in office anymore?
Has it occured to you that if Obama wins you loose your boogeyman?

Well umm….
My opinion is that CNN is pretty much slanted left, so Fox kind of helps to put things back pretty much even.
I don’t get all of my news from Fox, sometimes I hit up Rush Limbaughs site - he has an excellent page dedicated to the daily news.

Thing is about me and my kind….
we don’t look at your kind as evil.
In fact, I think Churchill (I think I just butchered his name) said, ‘If you are young and not a liberal then you have no heart, if you are mature and not a conservative then you have no brain.’.
When I first read that quote I was blown away. I was like, ‘WOW! There is a guy who knew what he was talking about.’.
I mean, I have been there. I was a liberal too back in my former life. I was in college, I was being ‘educated’ I ‘cared’ about all this crap around me.
As I got older I began to realize that the world works very differently from my viewpoint in college.
And now all these years later here I am. I realize that there is this idealized viewpoint that college kids have - and then there is the REAL world.
The difference between us may seem vast, but it isn’t. I just needed to live a bit and learn how the world really works.

That is why I don’t hate the libs. It is really hard for me to hate someone when they remind me of my former self.

You should try it. I read your response and I am blown away. That is quite a chip you have on your shoulder there son. You need to step back.
See if you can put that post together without all that vitrol, without all that hate.

Obama can’t win

Black man named Hussein Obama it won’t happen

McCain is just Bush III

I don’t think that McCain is any better of a candidate then Hillary or Obama.
I am conservative NOT republican.

But to say that McCain is just like Bush is fallacy.

The reason conservatives don’t like McCain is that he doesn’t uphold conservative principals. He calls himself a conservative, but is quick to cross the aisle and sell out those ideals just so he can get his name in the papers and look good on TV.

Bush isn’t like that.
I wouldn’t vote for Bush this time around. Not because I don’t like him, but because I think he has had his eight years, it is time for someone different.

I just can’t understand people calling him ‘McBush’. You guys have clearly not done your homework.

Superpowers gain respect from military and economic power. Not from building codes.

Having said that, i think this is one of those moments that lead to reform and greater emphasis on stricter building standards.

Katrina was largely the government’s fault.

First ,the government build shoddy levies and encouraged residential and commercial growth in a huge area that is beneath sea level.

If a private company were to build those levies then they wouldn’t have been a massive fail like the government build levies were.

But even after the levies broke, the government fucked people even more by sending FEMA in there - which did nothing but send false hope and prevent the REAL help from giving their assistance.

China is as capitalist as they come nowadays.

Its not just the matter of food. You also have to factor in other resources both physical and non-physical (e.g. jobs) that is needed to support a human being (and the consequences of supporting said human being, e.g. pollution). In fact, a recent article on BBC(?) stated that recent college grads in China are having difficulties finding jobs. More spefically, 5.5 million students graduate from Chinese universities last year. However, there are only 3.5 million jobs openings available to these new grads. Therefore, 1.5 million Chinese students have to either go back to school for another degree or become unemployed.

The fact is … China simply does not have the resources or the capacity to support an additional, say 500 million people.

First, China does not claim to be a superpower. For all official accounts, china claims to be a developing nation and claims it should be treated as such.

Furthermore, what is modern human rights? Who defines modern human rights? As far as I am concerned, modern human rights is simply a set of standards and rules arbitrarily defined by western nations (for which the western nations believe to be *universal*), with no regards to the culture or ideology of anyone else. On the extreme end, one can argue that human rights is simply another method for western nations to impose cultural hegemony upon everyone else (whether the other nations like it or not).

So you would be cool with slavery?
I mean, if some third world country dictator walked up to his podium and said, ‘Chinese people are less then human. All Chinese people in my country are now property of the government.’.

I wouldn’t be cool with it. I would say that there are some universal truths out there and one of them is that slavery is just simply wrong. Another is that human beings are not property of anyone (or any government).

But what you are saying is that my ideals are just my way of imposing my views on everyone else. That third world country should be left to its own ends - even if those ends seem ‘wrong’ to me.

The Chinese government does not proclaim Chinese people as less than human. Also, the Chinese government does not view the Chinese people property of the government either. I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion.

Funny that you brought up the subject of slaves. The United States was the one of the biggest importer and holders of African slaves when Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of independence, claiming all men are created equal, as well as claiming life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as self-evident truths. Where were life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness when it comes to these African slaves? I thought all men were created equal? Taking a page out of animal farm, I guess some are more equal than the others.

What is problem with leaving third world countries to their own ends? Why can’t we leave them to their own accord and allow them to choose their own destiny (as long as they are not affecting anyone else that is)? More often than not, foreign issues that Western countries tries to tackle can’t be classified as black or white. These issues simply can’t be viewed as morally right or wrong, for they are too complex and have too many factors and/or parties involved. More often than not, these issues fall under the various categories of grey. No matter what side you stand by or what party you choose to support, some native people will be disenfranchised and screwed as the result of your actions. Furthermore, Western nations tend to fvck things up when it tries to meddle with third-world countries’ internal affairs (especially during the last 30 yeras or so).

Just look at Africa (Western nations have tried to steer Africa towards democracy and the modern path for how many years now?) and the series of foreign related blunders that the US made during the 70’s and 80’s (contra wars, sponsoring the overthrown of a publicly elected Iranian president, which lead to the installment of the unpopular shah, the return of the ayatolla, and the formation of a pissed off islamic republic … just to name a few).

To put it bluntly, how would you feel if some random neighbor came into your house [uninvited] and tell you how you should run your household (well, he claims you are running your household incorrectly)?

never mind the fact that there would be rampant bitching about the starvation that would be rampant in China if they didn’t have the OCP

This is exactly where the U.S. Government is headed.

They are gradually taking our rights and freedoms and eventually we will be just like China.
decesions like opc arent made when someoen wakes up in the morning and is cranky there are alot of crying babys, experts that know more than anyone on OT have all come together and agreed it wouuld be the best solution to the problem who are we to argue

I see you admire the control that the foreign governments have over the bodies of their people. On the flip side, you’re gonna be bitching about the very same thing once it hits where you live.

So, are you gonna go willingly to the local clinic for your enforced sterilization?

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4. How many civilians did the Georgian goverment kill? I keep hearing how evil Russia is but im curious as to how many civilians died when Georgia attacked? Honestly,...
5. Do you think Obama will be killed if he becomes president? Just as it happened to JFK. Not talking about conspiracy and weird stuff, (could be), but talking about some mad...