UMD Libertarians

I keep hearing how evil Russia is but im curious as to how many civilians died when Georgia attacked?

Honestly, dont you guys think if Georgia did something like this to America they would get even worse of a beatdown?

or israel

1600 is the number according to the Russian Government

And for those who say we can’t believe the Russian Government:

You expect us to believe what they US Government tells us, do you not? Why can’t we be expected to believe the Russian Government?

motherfuckin

No. Israel would be condemned by the international community and would then be forced to cede land to Georgia.

Hell-fucking-no I don’t believe what the US Government tells us.

Georgia did it to their own civilians, it’s a civil war.

technically they are russian citizens

These regions had de facto independence an most of the civilians killed had Russian passports.

Here is an analogous situation:

I wonder what would happen if lets say, Texas was a part of Mexico still, rebelled and then was surprise attacked by Mexico after 16 years of peace. What would America do if it had it’s citizens murdered near its border? Surely they would not dare to invade and violate Mexico’s sovereignty.

Well, a lot of them had Russian passports, so, they could be considered Russians.

excellent

you are in the minority i’m afraid
Georgia knew when they attacked S Ossetia that the Russians would respond militarily

so if baja california wants to secede from mexico, then we offer baja californians citizenship because they can’t travel without a valid passport and they don’t consider themselves part of mexico, then mexico moves troops into baja california, it would be perfectly acceptable for the US to invade mexico and capture several major cities but stop before reaching mexico city?

Yeah, sadly most Americans enjoy eating up lie after lie.
yeah I like how everyone says Russia’s media is so biased, yet I don’t think I have seen one report on TV that mentions that Georgia started this whole thing by launching an assault on civilians.

way to jack my analogy lol

You got it right though…thats exactly how the situation is. Too bad most Americans are either too ignorant by choice or are just so easily swayed by what our politically driven media spews out.
So is it confirmed that Georgia actually targeted civilians or is this pure bullshit? This makes or breaks so case in who is right and wrong. If no civilians were expressly targeted then Russia needs to fuck off.

dude they used Grad weapons on a civilian city. Its not a precise weapon. Thats like using a nuclear weapon on a city in order to destroy a police station.
why is it that no one talks about this? it’s like a huge conspiracy in the news media

same reason no one cares that, after securing the nomination, the presidential candidate runs to AIPAC to tell em "america is a friend of israel"

not to get too off topic but that was covered, but written off as a pandering to the jew vote… do you see an ulterior motive?

a lot of parallels can be drawn between the situations. i fear if the current georgia/russia/south ossetia situation is not handled in a proper way, it will be a hotspot for decades (and maybe centuries) to come.

it’s been going on for centuries already. if you look into the history of russia and the surrounding area, their governments and kingdoms have been overthrown continually. both from within the government and from the people themselves. it’s not even about territory or cultural differences. it’s just plain about power

i agree with you; what i’m referring to is america’s role in the issue. we might have to step in soon and thats gonna be a huge mess.

didnt the russians "grant" citizenship to the south ossetian?

"if Georgia did someting like this to america?!?!" what exactly did georgia do? stike back against aggressive pro-russian forces? yeah, that’s called defending your territory, not acting aggressively

a democracy with a free press vs. a facist state with govt controlled media? yeah I’d take the former over the latter any day of the week…

:rolf: … moron …

why do we have to step in? i think the issue is well within russia’s control.

you misunderstand me. i’m saying that it would be unacceptable for the US to invade baja california and then the rest of mexico in that case, and I think rommel would agree. texas is not a good analogy, since that’s actually part of the US, and before it was, the texans were not US citizens.

yes.

1600 civilian deaths != 1600 killed by georgia.

Is there some sort of timeline on when the russians granted the south ossetians citizenshipe, because to me. It sounds like they granted the citizenship knowing full well that someday the georgians would try to retake the province and bring it back under control.

thus providing a means for invasion by russian troops.

idk if this is right but sounds somewhat feasible

Prehaps im misinformed but didnt Georgia strike first?

Can you give me some good sources on this?

im pretty sure georgia attacked south ossetia while being inhabited by russian citizens is not acknowledged as a independent country. its still acknowledged as a georgian province.

when a legitimate country strikes back, they strike back against military forces, not civilians.

thats even worse then, how would you feel if United States shelled New York City because of the gang problem there?

well new york isnt trying to become independent. too many sides in this conflict and no clear right answer to what happened.

So its appropriate to massacre civilians because they don’t agree with your viewpoint? Some democracy huh?

im not saying its right, but invading a country is invading. yes the US did it with iraq and we get shit all the time for it. but invading is invading whatever the reasons.

The South Ossetia province has been independant from Georgia for many years. They declared their independence in 1991, and in 1995 Georgia gave up and signed their cease fire.

The current Georgian president is the asshat who rekindled the civil war by trying to "unite" the country again in 2004. Which was quickly ended.(why there were peace keepers in the town when Georgia hit it at night.

South Ossetia is recognized as a separate country by Russia.(the big guy on the block who chooses which "countries" are recognized). South Ossetia has its own president. And the Russians didn’t invade, they responded to a call for help by South Ossetia’s president after his civilians were shelled during the night.

you’re full of shit

so russia killed their own people in S Ossetia?

we still have a free press thanks only to the internet

television and newspapers are a fucking joke in this country

and i found it interesting that china’s supposed "government controlled" media reported that China’s female gymnasts are underage

and don’t forget the recently report of Fox News receiving "talking points" straight from the White House

Prove me wrong kiddy fucker. Prove me wrong.

russia doesn’t recognize south ossetia, for one (and nor does any other UN member)

not purposely- but then, there’s no proof georgia purposely killed civilians either. collateral damage is a fact of war.

georgia killed the civilians before the bulk of russian forces got there

they recognized them enough to deploy peace keepers there

yeah if we drop a nuke on New York City to get 1 bad guy, thats ok too, since its collateral damage

i dont think you know what "recognize" means

You’re a fucking faggot man.

I proved the Russian claim so wrong in the other thread where I posted a report from Human Rights Watch who is actually in the city and disputed the Russian claims of dead because they had only seen 400 or so injured come to the hospital, most of which were military and 44 dead at the hospital.

I posted a link to the Ossetian Separatist website in another thread that talked about an exchange of fire between Separatists and Georgian military that violated the initial ceasefire between the two. It was after this exchange that Georgia went in.
I just finished reading an article on Russia threatening to nuke poland.

Yeah, the ruskies are looking like the good guys in this one…

If gangs were attacking civilians outside the city with mortars and grenades with the assistance of Britain I’m sure the US military would go in without hesitation and wipe out the gangs.

Suckered in other words

Really? Defensive weapons give them the right to threaten a country with Nukes? These are not Nuclear capable missles

is something wrong with your brain?

Um the missile system would prevent MAD and replace it with genocide, it’ll give USA the ability to first strike Russia with nukes with justification that the missile system will be able to prevent most of the Russian response. i.e. right now if we hit Russia, any nukes that we don’t get, will be launched back at us. But with the missile shield, if we hit Russia, the dozen or so nukes we miss will be launched, only this time the missile system "will" be there to intercept them.

Also its the polish government wanting the missile bases on their territory, the actual people there are protesting. In fact Poland had mass arrests not so long ago on this very subject.

Read the original reasons why both United States and Russia agreed not to deploy the missile defense shields.

would USA kill civilians to get a few gang members? Yes the United States military would go in. Only instead of shelling the city, they would go in with their Humvees and Bradleys and would go block by block wiping the insurgents out. They wouldn’t shell New York to get a few buildings in the middle of the night with weapons that are described as: "However, the system cannot be used in situations that call for pinpoint precision."

No, is something wrong with yours?
I love these hate the USA people.
If the russkies nuked poland even THAT would be the fault of the US.

Why, there is no other way to read this, the Russkies CAN do no wrong.
I mean, if they can’t be blamed for using there own nukes on Poland… how can they be fallible in anything?

pot kettle black, USA has been meddling outside its sphere of influence, how would you feel if Russians were setting up missile bases in say Cuba. I remember we were going to go into World War III to take them out, yet when Russians respond in a similar way, suddenly they are blood thirsty murderers.

You seem to think that the world is USA’s playground and we can do no wrong. Well newsflash buddy, this isn’t a bunch of camel fuckers you are starting to mess with. I mean think about it, you are willing to invade Iran because somehow 50 years from now they might have nukes. But then have no problem slapping another nuclear power in the face.

And you are still trying to make the US out to be the badguy if the Russkies use there nukes.

Why do you hate this country so much?
Let me help you out.

Here is a list of countries I am quite fond of:

Australia
England (Great Britain)
Canada
Japan

Here are some countries that I dislike, maybe even have disdain for:

France
Germany
Russia
China

Tell this to Saddam Hussein and Milosevich.

Or does that not apply now that it is american allies doing the butchering. The Georgians tried to flatten a city with MRLS and then they got their ass kicked for doing so.

The Georgians gambled. They thought they could take Georgia and the Russians would grumble and stand back. Their president got cocky and bit off more than he could chew.

The main difference is that Georgia is not Russia, America or even the UK. They are a tiny little country. Maybe all the US military support made Sakashvilli think he was turning into a little Israel. He just didn’t realise that Russia is a military juggernaut.

You didn’t prove shit.

You posted an article that basically said that solid facts are really hard to come by and that there are no reliable statistics.

very good point.

no…I’m saying that United States is trying to escalate this shit by encroaching on Russian territories. If you back a nuclear power into a corner you can bet your ass nukes will fly in self defense. I don’t hate this country, I hate the neocon foreign policy who don’t think before they act. Guess what, when the president and the congress will be sitting in a nuke shelter. It’ll be the citizens of this country who’ll turn into radioactive dust when the nukes fall

I disagree because mine is a good analogy. I’m simply trying to show a hypothetical scenario that would occur near US soil.

And if you want one that is very similar and actually did occur lets look at NATO’s intervention in Kosovo. A predominately Albanian region rebelled against Yugoslavia. The country struck back, resulting in death of civilians. Then NATO went in, bombed Yugoslavia to kingdom come and arrested the president. NATO did to Yugoslavia what Russia is potentially doing in Georgia right now. I would think that it is a bit hypocritical of the West to criticize the actions of Russia.

No, because Texas is part of the US, and South Ossetia is not part of Russia.

The Kosovo intervention is not the same because that would have never been authorized if there wasn’t ethnic cleansing going on.

Human Rights Watch got the numbers of wounded and dead from the hospital. The numbers given I would say are pretty reliable. It’s the only real numbers we have right now.

um dude the term hypothetical means that you need to imagine a time when Texas is in a position to declare its independence

Authorized by whom? America?

Who ever said Russia needs permission to act when it deems it necessary, especially near its border?

The U.N. says so! Just like when they authorized Bush to bomb Iraq! …… oh wait

Well apparently, Russia just up and decided to start handing out passports like candy to any South Ossetian who wanted one. So of course a bunch of them are going to accept the offer, it lets them move back and forth over the border. Pretty transparent move if you ask me, it was done just so Russia can point at them and say "See, these are OUR people! They all have Russian papers!"

I’m not sure about Georgia’s motives in all this, frankly. Whether they started the shit or not is a hazy issue, but it’s clear that Russia was looking for an excuse to go after South Ossetia and annex it and had been preparing to make this move for a long time. Either Georgia did something unbelievably stupid, or Ossetians have a death wish, or this whole thing is a setup by Russia. That last option seems the most plausible to me.

That’s a stupid comparison. Yugoslavia was run by a brutal dictator who was committing genocide against his own citizens. Georgia is a liberal democracy. Milosevic has more in common with Putin than with Saakashvili. (Not to say that Putin is anywhere near on the same level as Milosevic… or Saddam… but he is at best teetering on the edge of Supreme Leadership.)

um dude you might want to get your facts straight:
a) Saakashvilli’s latest election was fixed.
b) If you want to play the genocide game and call South Ossetia a part of Georgia, then Saakashvilli started this whole thing by attacking the non-ethnic georgian civilians. Guess what thats called ethnic cleansing

So its ok if a democracy kills civilians

And alot of commentators have noted how Sakashvilli has autocratic tendencies. His takeover of the media for one. Remember, that not so long ago there were widespread riots against him which resulted in a state of emergency being called. There are many that say he is a hothead and a risk taker, and i guess it showed when he did the rash thing by attacking South Ossettia with an artillery barrage.

It depends on the context. I am more likely to give Georgia the benefit of the doubt than Russia, China, Milosevic, or Saddam. You should note that I did say I do not know what Georgia’s motives were when it attacked (or counter-attacked) in SO. Russia’s motives, on the other hand, are perfectly clear — whether Georgia was right or wrong. It might be that both of them are trying to make a brazen land grab. Clearly at least one of them is.

I might give more credibility to claims that Saakashivili’s last election was fixed and he is an aspiring dictator if those claims didn’t come from the same people who claim George W. Bush’s election was fixed and he is an aspiring dictator. I can’t say I know what or whom to believe in this matter.

Yet you are giving the benefit of the doubt to Georgia who started the whole thing by shelling civilians. Remember we used to be buddies with Saddam too, and gave him biological weapons…how did that work out for us?

The only thing I have asserted in this thread is that Russia is not in the right here. I stand by that assertion.

Therefore, I agree with the "world community" telling Russia to knock it off.

What Georgia ought to do is actually somewhat unrelated from what Russia ought to do… because Russia’s actions were not caused by Georgia. It is something they have been looking for an excuse to do for a long time.

I agree with you completely. Russia just used the issue of "genocide" as an excuse to go in and annex large parts of Georgia. They pretty much wanted an excuse to reinsert themselves back into the region as a power house. This situation in Georgia provided them with one.

well. Two de facto independent regions of Georgia that have twice fought for independance and want nothing to do with Georgia.

If the Russians wanted an excuse to annex those regions, the rash actions of the Georgian leadership sure facilitated such amibitions.

The Georgian Gov’t was suckered into their actions by the Russian Gov’t by

1.) Giving people from those "breakaway" areas Russian passports

2.) Convinvincing the Rebels to start this shit….because we’ve got your back

3.) Int’l community does not recognize these areas as Russian

4.) Why in the fuck would Georgia start a conflict that they knew they could not win

The assertions that Goergia started this are completly assanine

Nobody forced the Georgians to bombard South Ossettia with artillery fire. They did it of their own volition and it was a gamble that didn’t pay off.

1) And this only compounds Georgian stupidity in attacking.
2) I don’t think they needed any convincing. They want nothing to do with Georgia. I guess Russian support meant they weren’t as submissive as Georgia would have liked.
3) International community didn’t recognise Kosovo until the war happened.
4) Because their leader is renowned as a hot head and a risk taker. He obviously thought he’d have more support from Europe and US, and thought perhaps he could take South Ossettia and close the Roki tunnel before Russia would do anything.

It was the Georgians rash actions that led to this situation.

No argumenent about the rash actions…but I think…no infact I know that they Georgians were provoked by constant Russian undermining of the Georgian govt and physical presence of the those provinces

Do you think that Russia was keeping peackeepers there out of the kindness of their heart
I dont think so

It works both ways.

If Russia was undermining Georgia with South Ossettia and Abkhazia; then Georgia was also irritating Russia with its relations with the US, and its aspirations to join NATO.

And your point…Georgia has the right to have relations with anyone they want…

Russia has no right to give Russian passports to Georgian citizens

Those people want nothing to do with Georgia and were a de facto independent state after fighting for independance before.

Now it looks like Georgia has secured the status of South Ossettia and Abkhazia in the Russian federation.

It was going to get there sooner or later…unfortunately

It its the will of the people then its not really a bad thing.

If Kosovo can split from Serbia then I think there’s hypocricy in saying that South Ossettia and Abkhazia can’t split from Georgia.

I think if Russia were clever they’d organise a referendum for both regions to declare their independance. It would be a foregone conclusion.

Also it brings to the point where i think this was one of Russia’s attempts to fight an American style war - to mix rhetoric with strategic goals.

they’re only allowed to split if they are splitting from someone we don’t like. they are especially not allowed to split and join a group we don’t like

Exactly.

I dont care if Georgia’s president is not a dictator (yet), if the people of those regions want independence from Georgia and wish to become a part of Russia then so be it. Will of the people, its what democracy is all about right?

Also dont forget that both south and north Ossetia used to be one united region. Soviet Union’s break up is what caused their separation. The Osetians are an Ethnic group that is closer related to Russians than Georgians. Also if the Georgian government really considers the region and its people as part of Georgia why did they order a Grad artillery strike against the capital and the people residing in it?
Oh look, Georgian troops firing on defenseless journalists.

Russia routed the shit out of Georgia. Georgia retreated rather quickly.

So I wouldn’t blame very many of the civilian deaths on "collateral damage."

fixed

i dont get it, the newscasters are like "russia is bad blah blah blah". then they show a guy actually in the field who is like "georgia is going crazy". then the newscasters go right back to "russia is bad, ANGRY GIANT blah blah blah"

toeing the company line

Because thats not what they want everyone to think. They want everyone to think Russia is the bad guys. Even though Georgians kill innocent civilians, shoot at defenseless reporters, etc.

Hey maybe that one Georgian reporter got shot at by the same guys.
This thread is like a time warp back to the 1930’s. You pro-Russian moral relativists will be eating crow in due time.

I wonder if the same people that are saying Russia is justified in its punishment of Georgia are the same people saying Israel was justified in it’s punishment of Lebanon?

A counter-attack is not punishment. Its a response. Also if Russia really wanted to "punish" Georgia Tbilisi would be burning already.

Russian troops were looting villages, targeting civilian infrastructure and were targeting non-military targets, that’s collective punishment.

Do you have proof that Russians specifically targeted civilian targets besides Western propaganda? Russian troops were given specific assignments to even protect Georgians from angry Southern Ossetians.

Collateral damage.

As for the second article you posed it has just as much evidence against Georgia, which started the whole ordeal. If Georgia never attacked, Russia would never have to respond, preventing this whole mess from unfolding.

"eyewitnesses described atrocities committed by Georgian troops, including an incident where a group of local young women were rounded up and burned alive, and killings of old people and children."

sounds like the US in Iraq to me

The irony of that title of that article had me fucking rolling.

You do realise the difference between me posting reports from a third party who is interested in human rights violations by both sides as compared to Russian state run news who has so far provided what the Russian government wants it to which is why the genocide and thousands dead rumors spread so quickly with any verification.

Collateral damage seems to be the new hotness.

Well its funny, because the alleged "state-run" biased Russian media outlet provided information similar to the third-party article you provided:

"Human Rights Watch interviews with more than 100 people in Tskhinvali and in the villages of Nizhni Gudjaver and Khetagurovo yielded a clearer picture of Georgian forces’ indiscriminate use of Grad multiple rocket launchers and tank fire. In Tskhinvali, Human Rights Watch saw numerous severely damaged civilian objects, including a hospital, apartment buildings, houses, schools, kindergartens, shops, administrative buildings, and the university ().

The shelling of Tskhinvali caused civilian casualties. "

How come Georgia’s actions and attacks are not questioned? Why is their attack on innocent civilians not condemned by the West?

Oh and the title is not ironic, its the truth. Dont even try to deny for a second that everything networks like FOX and CNN are reporting is impartial and without bias.

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