UMD Libertarians

…and fears Obama because he wants a $9.80 mimimum wage (I haven’t read or heard this, have you?).

His question to me was: Do you want the price of a pizza to go from $6 to $10? How will that run through other goods?

My response was:

Over the past 5 years, the other component costs of your business have risen with inflation (ingredients, utilities, rent, insurance, etc.). Only labour has remained low. It only make sense that labour costs will increase too, as gradual inflation is inherent in a growing economy.

Rather than worry about the initial additional costs of paying your people, consider that these people, and everyone throughout the economy earning a wage impacted my the minimum wage, will now have more expendable (or is it -ible?) income, thus while your costs will increase, your sales should increase as well.

Also, historically, within the United States, every single state that has required a higher than federally mandated minimum wage has seen an INCREASE in small business growth, not a decrease; and an INCREASE in the state’s GDP, not a decrease.

Discuss.

Link?
minimum wage earners not only work at pizza places, but are their biggest patrons. he’ll be ok.
Minimum wage was still higher in 1997 than it is today, when adjusted for inflation.
Personally, I think the minimum wage should be adjusted with inflation. It seems silly to keep it the same for 10-15 years and then all of a sudden jump it up to what it would have been had it grown with inflation throughout that time period.

I don’t really feel bad for your buddy. The price of pizzas may increase… but it will more adequately represent the actual cost of the pizza. Right now his company’s labor costs are being subsidized by the government via welfare/medicaid/food stamps/health insurance etc for his employees. As the minimum wage increases the burden on the government for these programs decreases since fewer of the employees will be in poverty.

I haven’t heard the $9.80 minimum wage either… but as a general rule I think it is better for companies to bear the burden of keeping their employees alive via wages than the government doing so via social welfare programs.

This is a great read.
The conclusion was increase in minimum wage didn’t really impact the unemployment rate
$10 is still pretty damn cheap for a pizza, but the Little Caesers around here charge $5, your friend is already gouging his customers.

The increase NEVER has the effects that the GOP claims it does.

If it were the case, people would be laid off for increases in other component costs.

Interesting point.

I’m not a huge fan of minimum wage though. To me it seems a harsh expedient to curtail a problem that probably isn’t widespread enough to warrant such an intrusive dictate. That problem being the exploitation of people stuck in "a poverty trap." Seems there are other approaches that could be taken.

IFL

Some business owners on OT claim that if their marginal tax rate on profit increases from 36% to 39% they’ll fire half their employees, cut wages on the other half, and stop giving any paid sick time as well as increase their prices 30%.

Just think what would happen if all companies were run like that. Increasing the minimum wage would instantly result in 20% unemployment and inflation would rival post WWI Germany.
Even if the minimum wage gets increased, and he’d need to increase his prices he’ll have offset that with more customers since a lot more people will have the money to buy his pizza.

Who wouldn’t though?
I mean, even if the economy began booming, who would want to keep employees. No … FUCK THAT. Just the thought of having to pay the extra 3 percent on profit above $250k leaves no choice but to stick it to Tha Man and cripple the business in the face of increased demand.
Min wage should increase by the rate of inflation… I also don’t get how this remains standard for a decade or more, and then suddenly jumps way up… $9.50/hour still seems a little high to me…
That’s not the half of it. Wait ’till you have to give employees a "living wage" when they get married and poop out a puppy.

that would be great if the federal government was honest about inflation

so your argument is "inflation is a fact of life, embrace it, enjoy it, raise your prices"

?
Min wage should stay down. Prices should go up.
What else would motivate these losers to get out of bed and get good jobs.

link?

ps. i thought i read that, to count for inflation, the original purchase power of the minimum wage would need to be about $13/hour
wait, so now under obama, pizza is going to cost more? fuck man, toppings are normally like $2. so add some decent toppings, and you’re looking at $16 just for a little caesars pizza…

wtf obama?
Minimum wage following inflation year over year creates an artificial wage floor and increases the risk of cost push inflation.

it doesn’t matter anyway. he’s going to raise taxes so high you won’t be able to afford even a $10 pizza, let alone a $16 one. we’re all doomed.

We just got Little Caesars here in my neighborhood. Now, I get most of my pizza from them, because it is cheap and great quality.

I’m not so sure about "great quality", but it’s easily the equally of a Domino’s or similar. I love the places that advertise "free delivery" and then add that cost to the price of their food. $23 for a large pizza, delivered "free". Ok.

If you read my entire post, and that’s ALL you took away, then you’re a total and complete moron.

I agree, which is why I don’t support an annual wage change (increase or decrease).
Little Ceasar’s sucks compared to the smaller chains around here. I guess they’re on par with Dominos and Papa Johns (though not as good as Pizza Hut)

wtf papa johns is better than any of those. pizza hut is shit.

Stuffed Crust > *

Eww, I don’t like Domino’s, even though I worked there, when I lived in Bozeman, MT.

My favorite pizza is from Round Table and Pizza Chicago.
no one had a link so far, so here it is:

Here is another one:

ugh, indexing to inflation is such a bad freaking idea

Ohio has it and you have seen our prices go up with the wage and the quality diminish. We’re talking fast food restaurants and things of that sort, the people who minimum wage really affects.

Raising the wage floor completely indexed to inflation not only raises the price you have to pay for the same shitty employees, but it is a leading contributer to cost push inflation

The first thing I agree with 100% in this thread. Fuck I’m hungry. The closest PJ’s is 50miles away.
We raised our minimum wage here in Washington and we’re doing pretty good considering.

considering what man? finish your though…

let the people know

There are quite a few sources stating otherwise as well

TY. I hope more people read your link.
Do what any redblooded feelgood american would do…

Fire all the legal workers and hire on illegals. Only have to pay them a few bucks an hour under the table and maybe a pizza to feed their 20 family members.

Just keep an eye out for that RICO Act.
I gorge myself, when I eat pizza. I can’t eat less than a large at one time, or I get bummed.

Since when is a job at Little Caesars something that you would work at and expect to make enough to get married and have 2.3 kids on? It isn’t, you are supposed to do that job while still developing yourself for a more grand career. An 18 year old is supposed to do that job while getting himself ready for college and for that its a great job. Much to learn about how crappy things can be if you don’t work hard for something better.

Besides, who actually makes anything near minimum wage any way? In & out here in Phoenix always advertises their starting pay at I think $10.50 an hour.
$6 for a pizza? Where the hell is that? Everytime I order a pizza it costs me nearly $30 for two larges. I don’t think I’d freak out if it costs me $40 within a couple of years. Inflation.
i think a lot of you are missing the point. what about the people making $11 and $12 an hour and scraping by. minimum wage is not a livable wage and a lot of people will be fucked by this.

Ignoring the realities of labor costs though doesn’t work; the whole thing needs to happen together (labor costs, competiveness, and wages). If there weren’t negative implications by paying everyone at least $50/hour, we would have done it already. And if you don’t address those realities, you can’t really solve the problem or even be taken as credible when you speak to it.

Around the corner from my condo, there’s a Little Caesar’s that sells large pizzas for $8. I don’t eat a lot of it because I don’t like crust, but I still a lot of good stuff for my money.

thats fine, so whatever % raise you give to minimum wage workers, just apply it to everyone. when you increase the minimum wage you put more people at the poverty line.

The current state of the economy, housing crisis, etc etc etc…
I love the comments from the college-aged liberals in this thread who have no idea what it means to run a small business
The only places around here that pay minimum wage are small businesses. I applied to many retail places while in college and Target, Walmart, etc would all start paying at $10/hour - small video stores or pet shops are the ones who would offer minimum wage.

Raising the minimum wage will only hurt those small businesses barely trying to get by. The bigger companies have the money to pay above minimum wage anyway, and use that as a tool to attract the smarter, harder working people towards them and away from small businesses.

On the other hand, $9.50 an hour is not an appropriate wage for people who do nothing more than sweep floors and bag groceries.

i would agree about unskilled labour, but of course the $9.50 is very subjective to where you live.

edit: unscaled

Their professors know more about it than anyone else in the world, so therefore they know all about it too.

Do you realize that giving that index increase to everyone would create hyperinflation?

it’s not intended to be a livable wage.

Min wage = kids or 2nd jobs.

And then everyone has more money to spend, demand for just about everything increases, and prices go up. AKA inflation.

Esp. with our current demand-pull situation

nice

Like printing out $2 trillion for banks, insurance companies, GM, etc.?

that was sarcasm the point is, increasing the minimum wage would have a huge negative affect on the people that make more than minimum wage, but will not see the same kind of raise in wages.
Wouldnt congress have to pass a minimum wage raise? 9.50 is a little silly to be paying the dude bagging my groceries

Yes and chances are your bagger is already making more then that, at least in union stores.

ps 7.25 an hour starting June 24, 2009. Already passed/signed under Bush’s admin.

I love empty comments even more!

This is such a bullshit sentiment.

What foundation do you have to claim that minimum wage positions are created solely for 2nd jobs or children?

No, it will increase the income pool throughout their localised market, thus increasing demand as consumer have more discretionary funds.

Logic.

Do you really think anyone would honestly expect someone to stay in a position sweeping the floors at walmart, or running a register at McDonalds for their career ? Well outside of the mentally handicapped.
if we are talking about overpaying unskilled labor lets discuss the auto manufacturing industry

Oh. Logic?

What does the entirety of their career have to do with anything? They could end up being CEO of the company. The issue is the amount of money that they’re making RIGHT NOW. If it’s too low to support themselves, it’s an issue.

exactly, but they get a promotion to a real job. They don’t stick at the entry level, where English isn’t even close to being required job. So what is the point at increasing THAT wage ?

Get skills, more time in service, start doing something harder, get a promotion, etc…. = more wages.

But when the requirements for a job are slightly more then the requirements for a statue, no more wages.

Uh a 35,000 salary is too low to support people in many areas. Should the min wage be 17 an hour ?

What foundation do you have to claim that minimum wage positions aren’t intended for 2nd jobs or teenagers?

Just because some loser gets stuck in a minimum wage job well into their 30’s doesn’t mean that they were intended to be in that job. It just means they are a loser and aren’t worth more than minimum wage.

Why do you think we should be forcing companies to pay people more than they are worth?

This isn’t always guaranteed, feasible, or reality, and thus, it’s a problem; and beyond that, it has NOTHING to do with your original claim.

In extreme cases (Vail, CO, for instance), you’re correct. In most normal cases, that would be MORE than enough.

It will increase the income pool of those that are employed, but people who aren’t worth 9.50 an hour aren’t going to get paid that by very many small businesses.

I used to work at a local video store that paid minimum wage. It was struggling very much once Blockbuster and Bradley video came into town - the owner started working weekends so he wouldn’t have to pay anyone on those days. He ended up going out of business about 3 months after I quit. If minimum wage were raised to 9.50/hr he would have been forced to close up shop right then and there.

The foundation in my claim lies in the countless number people that I’ve met through a campaign or my career that are adults earning minimum wage, or close to it. Many or legalised immigrants, most didn’t attend college, and all work hard to earn a living, just with less of a skillset.

How do you define worth? Many people would argue that these people are worth $1 an hour, so that invalidates your argument.

Oh well, life sucks for people who have NOTHING to bring to the table, have no skills, no intelligence, and no initiative.

Life will always suck for those people, no matter how much you force others to pay them.

He went out of business because of a flaw business model and the presence of competition. He could have fired ALL of his employees, and worked there 24/7 all by himself. In the end, he would have shut down.

Then we agree, since their life will suck no matter what, and as it will benefit the economy as a whole, that we should pay them more.

If they were worth 1$ an hour, no businessman who intends to stay in business would pay them 5x more than they are worth.

Yeah, do you think that the cost of a raw material is worth 2x as much because of a fuel surcharge?

It has nothing to do with WORTH. It has to do with inflation pressure on the component costs of running your business.

Is the electricity that you paid $.10 for per kw hour last year now worth $.18 per kw hour?

I doubt it, mcdonalds doesn’t even pay minimum wage most of the time.

Target/Walmart start at 9 or more
etc….

It’s difficult to find a job that pays minimum wage outside of teenager/retard jobs.

Maybe texas is worst, then again you can buy a house right out of HS in many cities.

It benefits the economy to force small businesses to shut down, some teenagers to get paid way more money than they’re worth, and other teenagers to not be able to find jobs?

This is a funny exchange.

The typical minimum wage earner is hardly a middle-class teenager earning pocket-change—almost half of this population is above the age of 25, 41 percent work full-time and 87 percent are white.

Source: (the pdf file linked earlier)

Here’s more recent data (from 2007):

52.9 percent of minimum wage earners are above the age of 25, 35 percent work full-time and 82 percent are white.

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