UMD Libertarians

I understand wanting to keep as much money as we can in our own pockets. I understand that sometimes our money is mismanaged by “they”. But if you really think about, it is not "they", it is collectively "we". We elect the people who manage our money. If you think they are taking too much or they are mismanaging it, it is simple. Vote to have them removed.

Don’t want to pay taxes?

-Don’t use roads. And don’t expect goods to be delivered to you.

-Watch mom and dad die early in their retirement because of very treatable geriatric related health conditions because there will be no Medicare.
-Be prepared to bury your children when they get sick and die from polio, influenza, small pox etc..
-Don’t expect to have an even minimally educated workforce pool to draw from to help you run your business and make you money.
-If China invades, learn to speak Chinese. Things like F-16’s, standing armies and tanks cost money.
-Your computer will make a great door stop. Much of the internet technology and infrastructure was created with tax money.
-Keep some marshmallows in a box in your back yard. That way, if your house catches fire, you will have something to eat. There will be no fire department to call.
-Have a back up horse and plow. There will be no police to call if your primary ones get stolen.
-Break a knee cap now. That way, in the future you will know if rain is a coming. There will be no satellites to give you advance notice of the weather.
-Enjoy the smell of your very own shit in your very own outhouse.
-The medicines you use might work and they might not. They might help you or they might kill you. Who knows? There will be no FDA vetting process.
-Had a long day at work? Before you can sit down and relax, remember you need to spend some time at the wood pile to keep your house/cave warm for the night.

I for one have no problem paying a fair share of taxes to ensure that I have reasonable access/solutions to the above. The comments I have read as of late are some of the absolute dumbest, ignorant and short sighted comments I have seen posted in quite some time.
None of that can be done more efficiently with private investment, remember that.

It can all be done more efficiently. There is no such thing as a perfect public/private program.

But since you bought it up, lets think about that. I maintain that a well managed public program would be cheaper for the end users than a well run private program. No executive salaries and no dividends to shareholders need to be paid.

Thank you, good sir your yet another remarkable and salient thought. I see this contribution is up to your usual standard.

youre not going to get any "contributions" except for s from people who agree with your pro-tax bullshit point of view. the argument over whether or not private enterprise can provide all of the things you listed has been done to death a billion times just in this subforum, and anti-tax crew soundly won

Instead of mocking what my thoughts are, rationally debate them. I mean seriously Mr. asdfska, I actually do appreciate your input. I don’t agree with most of your stances, but I do read most all of them with an open mind.

I guess the real question I am asking is: a) would you rather live in a 1600 era, rural society where your only support comes from the labor of your own hands or, b) would you prefer to live in the type of society we have today?

If your answer is "B", then how do you propose that the services we currently enjoy be funded if not for taxation? I am being serious and strait forward. Hide behind your perception of me being a troll all you want. But until you can reconcile your beliefs with your day to day behavior, I have to wonder if you are nothing more than a free loading leech on today’s society.

this is the root of your problem

when was the list time you heard of a well managed public program?

i’d rather you not make completely absurd false dichotomies. what i was trying to say is that this subject has been debated (at varying levels of rationality) ad nauseum. its a completely ridiculous assumption that none of the comforts of modern life would exist without taxes. ridiculous.
I don’t have a problem with taxes themselves, when they fund useful services and infrastructure. I do have a problem when the powers-that-be keep dreaming up ways to spend money I haven’t even made yet. The government needs to operate within it’s means. Or at least look like it is trying…

Marine fisheries regulations, national flood insurance, my local water company. (Miami). Child immunizations, our prison system as a whole, our military. The Social Security program. NASA. Public schools.

Just to name a few.

Then if you are against those taxes, I wonder why you are so opposed to them.

Social security
NASA
Public schools

THESE are your arguments that the government can do it better than private industry

Do you honestly think that any of those programs could be run with less expense, and at the same current level of efficiency to the end user than the way it is now?

circular reasoning works because

A case study on an abject failure of introspective thought.

your posts in this thread are a case study in abject failure of basic mental processes

I am cool with that. Tell me how. Tell me why. I am seriously of an open mind on this issue. Convince me otherwise.

… says the free market sackrider that never actually posts anything substantive? Yeah…. as if you’ve really destroyed the points raised here.

oh you must mean the brilliant insights like "theres no way public schools could possibly be run more efficiently than they are now" you’re right, i can only cower before tom’s genius

so you also think NASA, SSA & public schools are all products of a system that clearly works better in a public sense and not private?

You have evidence that suggesting some huge difference otherwise, genius?

I think that’s a silly red herring to the point raised, which is that some taxes are an obvious necessity for the advanced society that we have.

As of late, I have seen next to no evidence that the private sector, as a whole, can even hold a candle to the public sector as far as efficiency goes.

In this time of economic turmoil, Social Security payments are still being made, old people and children curiously still have health care coverage, there are still fire fighters and police at my figurative beck and call, my room mate’s children are still doing well at school, I have power, water, phone service. I know that it will be cold in the morning because the data that my cursed government satellites transmits and is interpreted by weather.com observes this.

I mean seriously, what the fuck is there to knock? Is it really that bad?

Given what the United States spends on education, its relatively low student achievement through high school shows its school system is "clearly inefficient," McGaw said.

it’s still the argument that Tom has come up with
god, fuck this thread, i should have listened to my own advice

In any case,
A) have you seen a private aerospace company crank out a Hubble or COBE ….
B) have you seen the 10-year performance of private retirement accounts …
C) and you might want to know that the academic performance of public schools is on par with private schools while greatly increasing accessibility.

"Top performers included Finland, Korea, the Netherlands, Japan, Canada and Belgium."

Even MORE socialistic countries like Finland and Canada do better …. great evidence for the free market BS.

I really do wish that for once, you would rationally respond to an opposing point of view as opposed to your, ninja in, criticize, ninja out MO. You really don’t ever offering up a reasonable opposing argument.
so basically, it seems that your argument is, as long as the government accomplishes some good, it can be as wasteful with tax money as it wants and continue to demand more money and be more wasteful all on the justification that it does some good.
Well I think there are two forces pulling here. No one can argue for no taxes, everyone admits we need defense, education, etc. How much are you willing to be taxed vs. What you want in return for your taxes

Now when you talk about how much, this is really related to what you want in return. if you want the government to do everything for you short of wiping your ass, 50% or more might be fair. Considering I want minimal help/interference from my government, I expect minimal taxes, and seeing a return on those taxes. I also think this means outside of defense, your state should be collecting most taxes.
there’s also a difference between taxes at the federal, state, and local levels…

that no one ever seems to care about. me being part of the "anti tax crowd" is really just me being about less taxation at the federal level.

Completely agree.

I stopped reading right there. "We" didn’t elect shit. "You" elected these shitty leaders. I did not.

I’m not anti-tax so much as I’m anti-excessive government.

It doesn’t take trillions of dollars a year to provide all of these things that you listed. It shouldn’t be required of us to pay 50% of our income to the government to maintain these things.

Private roads were all the rage in the 1800s until some greedy exploiters (you know, those monopolists that liberals always bitch about ) thought it would be great to lobby the government to subsidize roads so that monopolies could be established. With these monopolies, prices went up and efficiency went down.

Most of their health problems would be nonexistent if they didn’t eat the shitty food that government tells you is safe, as well as taking pills that have hundreds of side affects that government tells you that you need. Also, without taxes and Social Security / Medicare, there would be much more money in the private sector and individuals would be saving up their own retirements. They’d have money.

Also, without government regulation in the medical-industrial complex, prices would drop drastically and treatments would be very accessible to almost anyone. For the very poor, charities, families, and other private organizations would foot the bill.

Wow, liberty, what a concept.

Yes, because all the billions we are pouring into education right now has been such an effective process. Oh wait, Americans lag behind almost every other country in the world in education, with governments that spend MUCH LESS money.

This can be addressed in several ways. But let’s just take the minarchist approach. Taxation for protection from foreign enemies is a legitimate function of government. So, I have no problem. But that doesn’t mean we have to keep the current federal budget. Having a good military defense != hundreds of bases overseas.

As well as billions of private investment. And private sources could have funded all of it.

Yes, because private and voluntary fire departments don’t exist right now. And besides, in a minarchist society, firemen are a legitmate function.

Yes, because private protective agencies don’t exist right now. And besides, in a minarchist society, police are a legitmate function - for catching real criminals (murderers, rapists, thieves), not political dissidents, drug users, etc.

That’s just fucking stupid.

Also dumb.

FDA approved medicines have killed thousands upon thousands of people.

This is fucking stupid. Without the savior of government, we’d all be living in caves? Typical liberal statist bullshit.

Your post currently tops the list.

What you don’t understand is that your option "a" was a result of governments.

You can thank classical liberalism, decentralization, federalism, and capitalism for the "b" option.

Capitalists have been the only true revolutionaries in the past several hundred years. Every other group - socialists, communists, fascists, mercantilists, etc - are reactionaries; they seek to reestablish the "Order" that has existed for thousands of years that used men as slaves. Liberty, freedom, and capitalism are all revolutionary. In the span of a couple centuries, they have advanced mankind further along than all the other centuries of statism combined.

The wonders and benefits of modern societies have flourished in spite of, not because of, modern reincarnations of statism.

Yes, and Nazi Germany was run ‘efficiently.’

If the price of government / public efficiency is slavery, then fuck off.

As does Lew’s Law.

And… whaddya know. Karnejj’s law, too!!

Oh yeah… this is FUN!

lew’s law strikes again

This is the same thread, genius. I guess the probability in your formula is really TWO … or more!!! Excellent math, there.

You are so worthless.
dammit, I wish you had not pussied out of our ban bet. It would have been great to be karnejj-free for a while.

…says the Great Pontificator who, apparently, still thinks his Nazi reference and "lew’s law" were clever posts.

You rewrite history like no other.

I guess that comes with the territory of being a fan of Austrian pseudo-science. But, you raise a good point….. you’ve proven that you have little of value to discuss, so I think I’m just about done directing any further comments to you. I’ll just correct your moronic free market bullshit as you spout it.

…says the idiot that quoted a person talking about adblock if anyone knew what a good ad blocker for firefox was.

Everyone else in the thread, with the exception of your sack rider, and the mods I spoke with, said you should have been banned.

But because you didn’t agree with me on the conditions, the bet was declared null.

social security can be replaced by simply buying govt bonds and you’d get a better return on your investment.
Social security can be replaced by telling old folks to use HGH

Originally Posted by lew
"Foreign Born" means not born on this continent dumb fucks.

So, anyway, to get back on topic after Karnejj’s faggotry, it will be interesting to see tom’s response.

Public services are left up the Municipalities that they serve, that’s why you pay local taxes.

I enjoy the interstate and I think it is crucial, I will pay taxes for that. The method for appropriating those highway dollars is actually not as terrible as most of the spending methods.

Privatizing medical care will drive down costs through higher demand and competition. Quality will also improve.

Education can be left to the municipalities that it serves as well as privatization. States can spend money on education if they please.

The federal government is there to provide the military support we need. I say spend on that as needed. China will never invade because of our nuclear deterrent.

I have problems when it comes to national spending bills, like Endowment for the Arts, Federal schooling, federal healthcare, debt obligation relief by the federal government. It is not in their job description

look asshole, you asked for "evidence" (as if such a thing was needed) that the nation’s public school system was not running as efficiently as it could, i provided. fuck off

You’re right - some taxes are a necessity to society.

But when do we go from some taxes to too many taxes? At what point has the government spent too much?

when < 1/2 of the country is expected to provide for >1/2 the country, which is where we’re headed.

I like me better than any of you. Why would I want to work more for you than me and my family? So, to think it’s ok to take >1/2 my check is retarded.

That will be great since I will have a choice in which road to finance, which retirement fund to invest in (if any), which vaccines to vaccinate my children, have them study in schools that I choose, with curriculum that I decide, I will have a choice which ISP to use, which fire service to subscribe to (if any because I will choose to fireproof my house), choose to live in a development with a sewer service provided NOT by the federal government, get to choose which method of heating to buy (the most efficient) and so on.

How great to be liberated
With all the money I save from being exempt from taxes, I could afford 10 times the services the government provides, with 10 times the quality, and no money being wasted in useless imperial wars
My personal favorite one is where people are told not to use roads, even though their tax money pays for them.

….and we’d all piss rainbows and ride unicorns to work!

Fixed

Naah, I’d ride a dinosaur.

Like Jesus, lol.

The difference is very simple, you support forcing me to buy a service, I support giving you the choice in which service you want. How great is freedom

Sometimes?

Sometimes?

How many hours have you spent reading about government waste?

lol

The fact that you mentioned Social Security proves you know little to nothing about what is truly going on in this country. The fact that you mentioned public schools proves you are totally out of touch with reality.

As Bugs Bunny would say……

"What a maroon."

And what, pray tell, is the reality?
Internationally……..

Says jackshit about the "reality" of US public system against the US private system, but, hey, why not have our country more like Finland and Canada

I like where you’re going with this!

Less than you apparently. I am of the opinion that most of what our government does is actually good and would be more expensive and less efficient than if run by the private sector.

That opinion is wrong.

I know. I can only imagine how much better off the recipients would be right now if Social Security had been rolled into Wall Street a few years ago.

Says you.

/thread

Well, if you look at the results of private schools, when compared to public schools, the results speak for themselves.

Here is a decent article from the POST……..

We’re often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child — on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s. What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers?

SEE LINK FOR MORE……

Also, if you have never spent any significant time at CAGW, you might want to take a look.

The results being that private schools do no better at educating children, and that much of their so-called "efficiency" stems from their refusal to accept children that require extra spending? Those results do "speak for themselves" when you look at the academic research into the matter.

Knock yourself out:
———————————–

• University of Illinois

  “Claims that simply switching students from one type of school to another will result in higher scores appear to be unfounded.”

• The private school practices examined in the report include accountability to parents, outcome expectations, clarity of emphasis on both academic and moral objectives, and teacher selection and retention policies. The report finds that the inner-city private schools shared more in common with public schools in low-income communities than with affluent suburban private schools. Suburban public schools shared more characteristics with suburban private schools than with urban public schools.

• Center on Education Policy
  

  Jack Jennings: The advocates for vouchers are saying poor kids in inner cities should have the right to go to a private school because they’ll do better. What we’re finding is that it’s the family background that makes a difference.

• Center on Education Policy
  

  the results showed that students from public schools were just as likely to go to college as students from private schools. The study also found no difference between the two cohorts on achievement tests in core subjects or on long-term outcomes such as civic engagement and job satisfaction.

• The report found that most nonpublic schools use admission procedures not permitted in public schools:
  * 58 percent require standardized achievement tests
  * 74 percent require "ability to perform at grade level."
  Clearly, with a 17 percent rejection rate on top of "admission considerations," nonpublic schools practice "skimming" to get "better" students and keep out problem students. Furthermore, 68 percent of nonpublic schools are either "definitely" (41 percent) or "probably" (27 percent) "not interested" in accepting "special needs" children–children with physical or mental problems or disabilities, who must be accepted by public schools.

• Private K-12 Schools Lag Far Behind Public Schools in Using Federal Education Programs

I stopped reading right there. The condescension was tolerable, but this assumption that the "anti tax" crowd doesn’t vote is just plain stupid, considering that, more often than not, it is the "anti tax" crowd that participates in grass roots projects that represent their political positions. So it was at this point of your post that I decided you’re too unfamiliar with the crowd you’re addressing for me to actually pay any attention to whatever it is you’re selling.

God I love you.

So, you think the fact that neither public schools NOR private schools in general replicate whatever techniques are used by the handful of Jesuit-like schools proves…… what?

There is nothing there to indicate that the government has ruined the quality of education, since your quote outright says that the acheivement differences to general private schools is eliminated.
The thing with private schools is, many are inclined to give students higher grades for less effort from the students so that the private school looks better with higher number of students entering better colleges. Same with standardized, regional tests, etc as a lot of private schools teach to succeed in tests, not subject.

Private schools might produce higher numbers, but in no way that means a far superior quality of education. This may explain why I find a lot of kids coming from private schools extremely dumb. (Not to mention arrogant)

Now I’m not saying that all private schools are like that, as there are some that are excellent. But again, that’s just a consequence of privately owned schools. Some may "cheat" their numbers to attract more "customers", and there would be no way to tell between the two.
So in terms of education quality, you’re taking the same risk with private schools as with public schools - some publics schools suck and some are downright godly. The difference with public schools is, the education quality depends (roughly) on the school’s budget, rather than trying to keep up with competition.

So your answer is to go back to private roads? I would just as well rather pay my tolls at the pump as opposed to every time I get in my car and drive somewhere.

You are talking about a well ingrained, culturally accepted lifestyle you bitter old coot. How do you propose that be changed now? Do you propose that those who have made money in the “shitty food and eating industries” refund the profits they made? Should McDonalds et. al. be liable for all the health problems they caused? You talk about building up a retirement nest egg in the private sector. How much money do people have now using that strategy as opposed to 2 years ago? My point is that the private industry, while it might work out in the long run, offers no guarantees. Me? I’ll take my guaranteed pittance of a Social Security check on top of what ever I have left over after our Wall Street overlords get tired of chewing on in. Government regulation is the only efficient way of being reasonable sure that we don’t get poisoned by the creators of the drugs they market. I personally want rigorous clinical trials on drugs that are overseen by a 3rd party whose primary mission is to not profit from it.

Guess what Lew? The tax payer funded RnD and distribution of basic childhood immunizations has unquestionably save millions of lives and has extended both the length and the quality of life for all.

I agree our public schools are slipping but to say that the only solution is privatization is absurd. Most families would never be able to afford a quality education for their children. I think a far more logical approach would be to demand greater accountability from the system in place. I also wonder about the countries that score above the US. Are not the vast majority publicly funded? Do you not agree that an educated labor pool is far better for the private sector than an uneducated one?

I see that we agree on at least one thing.

But they did not. The ground work of a lot of what we have now was funded by tax payers. Back in the 70’s things like PC’s and the internet was a pipe dream. I doubt it would be anywhere near as expansive with out the initial investment.

Agreed

Agreed. Although I am not a big fan of Rent-A-Cops.

The example might be stupid but do you deny that the leaps and bounds we have achieved as a society in regards of space technology would be anywhere near what it is today if it were built from the ground up by the private sector?

Call me dumb, but I actually like taking a shit and not ever having to see or smell it again.

Prior to the FDA, most medicines did not work or were more harmful. Does the term “snake oil” ring a bell. Is the FDA perfect? It certainly is not. But what we have now is a hell of a lot better than what we had 100 years ago.

I am not saying we would all live in caves, but the quality of the average lifestyle enjoyed by the average person in today’s world would be less IMO than if there were no government entity charged with helping out all of us.

I’m #1!

(You really come off as a selfish and pig ignorant prick sometimes.)

Yeah… the private road system was vastly more beneficial than the system created publicly.

People are FORCED to eat something because the government approves it. Excellent logic.

i knew there was something wrote with that sentence, but couldn’t quite point it out.

Yeah…. everyone here knows that insurance companies would just take everyone!

Hey…. you might be onto something. We should more towards more socialized systems like Finland and Canada which far exceed the US in education. Great idea!!

I agree - but I really wanted to hear what one of the pinko commie libruls thought of the question.
Everyone agrees we should pay some taxes for basic services, yadda yadda yadda. But not 25-30% rape like we have now.

Just another way for the Federal gov to keep the people in check. MAYBE they’ll see the money again if they play along and pass all the laws they deem necessary.
i see the points and benefits of privitizing certain government programs.
but how would we "privatize" infrastructure? currently i only have one choice for electric, one choice for water, one choice for natural gas, etc.
who would maintain the water lines? say i wanted to switch to a different water company because company A has "better water" than company B, how would i switch?
we kinda have "privatized roads" through toll highways. how would we privatize local roads?

Librulz?
I’d would LOVE to see the anti-tax crowd prove this assumption that they carry that all private businesses automatically trump public in terms of bang for the buck. I studied private prison systems in college and they were nothing but fail and shanks. Stories like cutting the number of guards to increase the warden’s salary. Building walls out of dry wall and hoping none of the inmates test the wall strength. There have been a few breakouts and all kinds of health / human services problems. I just don’t understand why they make this assumption when they have ZERO proof to support it, it’s just a fact in their minds

No, I completely agree with you here. Nobody can kill people as efficiently or lock people up in prison as efficiently as governments.

Where did anyone say that incarceration should be handled by private institutions? Get the fuck out of here with your crazy examples trying to justify the extreme amount of overtaxation in this country.

lulz … you’re a retard

Will you please stop avoiding my question, you fuck!

haven’t most states sold prisons to private entities?
Wait… I didn’t read the thread just the first page…

People actually disagree with taxation in general? wtf? Are all of these people who disagree with taxes 18 year olds who just got their first paycheck from McDonalds and are outraged at the 50 bucks they lost?

I don’t get it… Do you want roads? Do you want law enforcement? Do you want affordable education? Emergency response? A military so that we actually still exist as a country? Do you have any idea how much it costs to maintain one of the most powerful armed forces in the world? Do you know how much it costs to fund the technological advancements required to keep it that way?

What exactly do you people oppose/not understand?

better yet, take a look at this chart and tell me what you disagree with:

How ridiculous of me to not want to give away the fruits of my labor to be spent on pointless military adventures around the globe and entitlements for those who are too dumb to know when to stop procreating or to save

Be glad you don’t have to make the decision whether or not to take military action that may be a major blunder costing trillions of dollars, OR, may stabilize a large region of the planet increasing world trade and strengthening both our economy and security for decades to come.

But I am sure you, sitting in front of your monitor, think you know whats best when you actually know nothing at all, you seem to be missing petabytes of information, because you do not have NSA/FBI clearance.

If we spent nothing on the military since this country was formed where do you think it would be today? Need I remind you that the majority of scientific breakthroughs in the civilian sector are ultimately the result of military spending.

I disagree with this almost as much as I disagree with complaining about them lol. It’s your duty as a citizen to question your government, however you must do so in an informed manner, not simply bitching about how much money comes out of your check each week.

x2

Does that mean something? You can NOT communicate by NOT posting on the forum.

Does that mean something? You can NOT communicate by NOT posting on the forum.

Your intellect is matched only by your wit.

Don’t waste your breath with codex.

He wanted to show me how ’stupid’ the Bible was, by quoting Scripture from it to prove me wrong in a discussion. Only problem was that he quoted the Book of Mormon.
I hope Obama keeps finding tax cheats. He is doing a great job of accidentally screwing his good ole boy network.

You blind fool.

in the three cases that you have listed, the private industry equalivant isn’t any better in terms of sustainability or even quality

Which was known by me and intentionally quoted along with several from the bible…

But way to bring up something from a completely different debate, different forum even, that has nothing to do with this and then portray it completely out of context to make it seem like it was a mistake on my part…

Does anyone else notice a distinct lack of valid points of argument from this side of this debate? I posted a chart showing exactly where your tax dollars are going, and asked you to tell me what exactly of those things you object to, and this is the shit I get in reply. I’m done posting here, repost this in OnT and then I will participate, I don’t post just to see my text on the screen like some people.

This isn’t a debate, people are just mesmerized by you.
You can start the tax strike, and if you win, we’ll all join in.

Then what the fuck are you doing here?

No, really. Do you not understand what this forum is for? Maybe the name "Die in a Cross Fire" will clue you in…

What happened to your thread about the letter you were going to send to your congressman about a coast-to-coast vacuum tube environmentally friendly maglev system with 2000mph trains? Everyone pointed out how fucking stupid it was so you deleted it? (if that wasn’t you I apologize, I just remember your AV in that thread as the OP, may be wrong though.)

simplified argument:
Social Security, medicare, welfare, etc….
large chunk of military budget
most of the regulationary departments

I remember that thread. You’re completely misrepresenting how it happened. We have all been mopping the floor with you in LAOT, atheists/secularists, Buddhists, Christians (incl. Mormons, by the way), and Muslims alike have all taken shots at you.

Similar to how things are in LAOT, we’re also smarter than you in DIAC and OnT.

Oh, I thought you were done posting here.

Loser.

Ironically, his avatar should be sufficient enough to clue you in as to whether or not he would support such an initiative.

Please quote me where I said spend nothing on the military
sorry but I shouldn’t have to scroll for 3 seconds on my high resolution monitor to see our government spending.

Please show me where in the constitution it says that US citizens are responsible for stabilizing the middle east. Over the last 15 years our country has caused that part of the world nothing but grief, our embargos on Iraq alone cost hundreds of thousands of lives to their people. This is necessary in the name of economic prosperity for us?

I’m all for security and that’s what the military is supposed to provide, but there’s no reason to have over 700 bases around the world when we can’t even keep our own borders and ports secure.

And according to the 9/11 commission report and michael schuer the former CIA Bin Laden Intelliegence guy, our intervention in that region is the main cause for the attacks on 9/11

You mean the same faulty intelligence that got us into this mess? I don’t need bureaucrats to tell me when there’s a moral justification for going to war. Iraq did NOTHING to us.

I don’t think anyone here is advocating zero military spending.

If you put civilian breakthroughs on one side and government breakthroughs on another, you’d find out quickly that you’re going to fall drastically far from a *majority*. The first step would be determining the specific definition you want to use for scientific breakthrough.

lol you have quite a twisted view. I have made more meaningful points in more meaningful threads in that forum than you could ever hope to, and people on the opposing side don’t like me for it, and attack me personally for it, like you are right now. Oh, and the only atheist/secularist that has ever said anything against any of my points in LOAT was UP and he is just a dick

I have yet to see you make a valid point…

Yeah, because 3 trillion dollars of income can be divided up between less than a dozen projects, so that the graph on the last page can be more simple for you people with ADD
[quote=tom37211;111563817]

Don’t want to pay taxes?

I’m fine with paying for roads with a gas tax. That’s actually one of the things that our government has done very well. It’s payed for itself for a long time. If you don’t use them you don’t have to help pay for them. Unfortunately, it looks like they’re going to be spending a lot of money in excess of the gas tax because we have to fix our "crumbling infrastructure" RIGHT NOW BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!!!11111ONE

We all live and die. Some people live longer than others. If you can’t afford to take care of yourself then that sucks for you. It’s called natural selection.

The private sector develops those vaccines. The government just approves them and helps fund the research. I don’t necessarily agree with the funding but the prevention of epidemics and pandemics is one of those things that I find acceptable for the government to have a role in.

There are a lot of jobs that don’t require any more education than a few hours of on the job training. Even if there were no public schools there would still be people out there seeking education.

Defense is necessary. Getting involved in building and manipulating governments and nations overseas isn’t.

I’m sure glad Al Gore came along! Where would we be without him??

I have no problem with government funded fire protection. It’s my private insurance company that will pay me for my losses, though.

Once again….insurance will replace your losses. The police will just take a report. Just because you can call the police doesn’t mean that they’ll be there to save you. They aren’t obligated to protect you or your property. Their job is to solve crimes and bring law breakers to justice. This is another thing that it’s OK for the government to handle.

Because there are no private satellites in the sky .

Water management is another government run service that works as well as can be expected. The more you use the more you pay. I just don’t see how there could feasibly be competing water companies servicing an area. You can only bury so many sewer pipes. If you don’t like it you can always shut off your service and just use bottled water, rainwater or a well (if the government allows you to dig one lol).

I’m not a fan of the FDA. I think that independent, private sector companies would do a better job. If the FDA fucks up no one ever hears about it. It would be fine for the government to set up standards for those companies’ tests but trying to do everything themselves is overstepping their bounds.

Same as water. There are some services where competition just isn’t feasible. Solar and wind are both getting more and more efficient and affordable so that might be a viable option for the average joe soon enough. The government is already subsidizing that, though, so you can bet that they’ll set up regulations to make sure that they’ll be able to keep their fingers in the grid even when getting off of it is cheap enough for people to consider.

I have no problem paying my fair share, either. I don’t think that someone who makes more should have to pay a bigger chunk, though. Why should the guy making $20k a year get back everything that he paid come tax time while the guy making a million a year ends up owing hundreds of thousands?

The military makes up a large majority of our budget. Like I already said, do you have any idea how much it costs to maintain one of the strongest militaries in the world?

The social projects that most of you are against are pocket change, and don’t effect the budget a whole hell of a lot.

Please don’t ever mention natural selection again as you obviously have no idea what it is. The ability to afford medical care has nothing to do with it….

The government funds the majority of the research… The FDA makes sure these vaccines won’t later give you cancer or effect you in some other horrible way. So you have no point of contention here?

The reason the US has risen to the top nation in the world is DIRECTLY related to the number of brilliant people we have discovering new science and new technologies. Most major inventions and scientific advancements of the last hundred years have come from the US. Without a decent education system we would be Mexico.

The fact of the matter is most of you are so close minded and near sighted that you don’t understand the intricacies and complexities of all of this, and how it all effects everything else. Lose our ability to provide a decent eductation to every child in this country and in 100 years we will go to shit.

It’s not your call. Again, you don’t have the knowledge to understand the complexities of this. If we stabilize a large part of the world it could have a drastic positive effect on world trade and security for a century or more. It could benefit our economy for hundreds of years. It could pay for itself 10 fold. However, we may fail, and accomplish nothing. It is NOT YOUR CALL because you DON’T HAVE THE RELEVANT INFORMATION TO MAKE THAT CALL.

So again, you have no point of contention…

For a third time, you have no point of contention.

HOW DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THERE?
/facepalm

Again, no point of contention.

The FDA is not concerned with profit. Private sectors would be. You can bet the safety and quality of food and drugs would decrease if it were left to private companies to determine what is "good enough" to market.

No point of contention…

Why? Because that person making 20k a year NEEDS ALL of that money to reasonably survive. If he loses 4k of it to government he may lose his car, then his job, then his house, then become homeless and become a burden on the state, possibly rob a convenience store and become an inmate, costing the government more than he ever would have payed in taxes… Someone who makes a million a year poses no such risk if he loses 100,000 of it to taxes.

Also, wtf are you even talking about? By paying the same percentage everyone is paying the same amount. Taxing based on percentage of income is much more "fair" than taxing the guy who made a million the same 5k as the guy who made 20k… are you just dumb?

Who do you think you are kidding?

The economy.

/thread

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you another meaningful, well thought out post full of insight and valid points of view from "Dumpy Dooby"
For someone demanding a meaningful response I’m surprised you’re ignoring my retort.

This all falls under "we aren’t perfect and we do make mistakes". When you throw a trillion dollars around with everything you do your mistakes are going to be trillion dollar mistakes, and your successes, and there have been plenty of them, will be trillion dollar successes.

Do you expect us to NEVER fail? Does that mean we should NEVER try?

buddy. come on

prison system? schools? social security?

How old are you, 14???

social security and medicare are EACH more than the defense budget. Combined they are ~45% of the total spending.

That doesn’t answer any of my points and is extremely vague. Never fail at what, and never try at what?

If "not trying" means that 1 million Iraqis would still be alive today due to a non-interventionist foreign policy, then yes, we should not have tried because most Iraqis do not even want us there to begin with and our presense there only exacerbates the problem of muslim radical extremeism which in turn makes us less safe and secure. The only time I would advocate intervention are the rare cases of genocide.

ummmmmmmmmm Saddam was killing Iraqis by the millions. Does that not count as genocide or are you ok with him killing his own people?

500 million/month!

No he wasn’t. You’re making shit up.
Saddam was executed because he had some folks executed that were plotting to assassinate him. eloel

The point is that our government is way too big you dumbass.

The basic definition: Do you think that the laws of nature don’t affect us anymore just because we live in a civilized society?

And then when they DO have negative affects on people they deny deny deny so that they don’t have to be held responsible for telling us that it’s safe.

I don’t think so. We rose to the top because government got the fuck out of the way and let people reap the rewards of their effort. People had incentive to be successful. People had incentive to come up with wonderful inventions. People had incentive to bust their asses. The more that government takes away from the haves to give to the have nots the less incentive people have to make something of themselves. Just because we’re all created equal doesn’t mean that we stay equal our entire lives. There are exceptional people and there are people who, quite frankly, will never amount to anything. It’s up to you to decide which type you’ll strive to be. It’s up to the government to let people be the most that they can be instead of trying to make everyone believe that they are exceptional and that they deserve to be treated as such no matter what they do. Some of the most incredible, world changing inventions of our time were invented at a time when our school systems were pathetic and most people were uneducated. Public schools don’t create brilliant minds.

Once again….some of the greatest inventions and advances of our time occured at a time when schools were worthless and people had to figure things out for themselves. They did, though, because they knew that they’d be able to profit from their effort. This country is already going to shit and if things keep up the way that they’re going there’s a good chance that we won’t be bouncing back. It’s not going to shit because of corporate greed. It’s going to shit because so many people are convinced that they should get a piece of what other people have worked for.

:blah: The little people aren’t smart enough. Just leave it to the smart people in power because they know better. They couldn’t possibly have anything but our best interests at heart after all.

Or the guy making $20k could just find a way to improve his lot in life. But why would he have to if the bare minimum is more than enough to live comfortably and he gets to keep everything that he earns? No one has any more of an excuse to rob a convenience store than they do to become homeless in this country. If people would just stop making excuses for themselves and worry more about their own life than the guy who’s living the life that they wish they had then things would start to turn around with a quickness.

I have no idea what you’re getting at here. If the guy making a million is taxed 25% of his income and the guy making $20k is taxed 25% of his income then they’re hardly getting taxed the same amount.
I am not going quote for quote with you anymore, because you are ridiculous…

You think modern medicine and someones ability to access it has anything to do with natural selection. You are arguing AGAINST an equal educational opportunity for all citizens, and you are arguing for the exact same dollar amount of taxation independant of what you earn. So people making 50,000,000 a year pay the same 5k in taxes that some poor bastard working at mcdonalds for 20k a year does, and thanks to your position on education most people will fall in the latter category. Because of this the government will have no money, our military will collapse, you will have to pay individual organizations to drive on roads, which are all toll roads now, you will have to pay in advance before a fire truck comes to your house to put out your fire, and worse of all you will have to watch as we slowly lose ground on the world stage and become a third world nation thanks to no funding for scientific research and development before finally being taken over by China…

I relied on tax-funded government programs to get through school. I work as a software engineer now working on the cutting edge of fiber optic technology that is going to revolutionize communications in this country over the next decade (think 100gb/s fiber to the home, think all data, TV, Internet, Video Phone, all on one cable with true on-demand access to the entire library of every TV show and movie ever made), if it wasn’t for those government grants and loans I would be changing peoples oil at a garage…

How old are you?

You are a moron. If the affairs of this nation were left in your hands we would end up worse off than Mexico. Just be glad we have a whole system in place so that people without an ounce of common sense such as yourself will never end up in a position of power in this country.

We don’t have an equal educational opportunity now. Just ask anyone who only graduated from high school about Harvard graduates. Even one public school to the next doesn’t provide the same quality of education.

I still can’t figure out where you’re getting the idea that I think that every single person should pay the same dollar amount in taxes. If a guy who makes $1 million pays 25% then he pays $250k. If a guy who makes $20k pays 25% then he pays $5k. Is that clear enough for you?

Equal opportunity does not mean equal in practice. Everyone has the opportunity to go to college, some choose to screw around and get shit grades in high school and are then unable to get into a good school. It’s exactly the way it should be.

Also, as far as equality between public schools, its as close as we can reasonably make it given natural and unnavoidable variation due to factors such as individual teachers and the "type" of children in the area.

I must have misunderstood what you meant here.

You are delusional.

I can see why you’re such a hardcore government sackrider then. I’m a high school graduate who works in sales. Instead of going to college I spent those years busting my ass, earning a solid reputation and working my way up to where I’m at now. If I lost it all tomorrow I would happily resort to changing people’s oil at a garage….or delivering pizzas….or waiting tables because I know that I wouldn’t be there long. I’m 29 btw.

Soon enough you’re going to find out how bad off we really are and it’s because we have people without an ounce of common sense such as yourself in power.

The difference between my line of thinking and yours is that you think that once you’ve done what you’re "supposed to do" and you finish your education that you’re somehow entitled to the life that you’ve "earned" from that point on. I believe that you can never take anything for granted. Getting an education doesn’t earn you anything. It’s an investment that will hopefully pay off. You’ve got to keep working for what you want until you’ve earned enough so that you no longer have to work.

Property values and the associated property taxes which pay for the schools have more to do with it than the individual teachers and the "type" of children in the area.

Jesus Christ, you’re a fucking idiot. All of LAOT hates you, atheist and religious alike.

This is pretty much true. I wonder who hates him more though… My guess is the atheists since he "represents" us whereas the religious types can just think he is a douche and be glad they aren’t like him.

Please, like the government gives a rat’s ass about common folk. We gave the Green light to Suharto to invade East Timor and kill 100,-200,000 civilians. Our record in El Salvador and Nicaragua in appalling and we have supported some of the most ruthless regimes in modern history, as long as US corporate profits were protected. We helped install the Shah, we protected Marcos, Pinochet,as well as many other brutal regimes throughout the world.

Wake up.
Almost everyone knows we must pay taxes. Almost everyone knows we get a lot of services and we all have to pay for them. What some people don’t like is the fact that the Federal Government has way too much power and there is massive fraud, waste, abuse and corruption at all levels of government. No one wants to see their tax monies getting wasted, for any reason, but even going to possibly worthwhile causes can be frustrating. Like tax money for the arts. I love art, but I don’t want my tax dollars going towards it. We have too many problems in this country for a single penny of tax dollars going to art. Right now our schools nationwide are crumbling, yet we have brand new federal buildings with imported woods and marbles, expensive furnishings and some even have expensive art on the walls. Personally, I don’t think the feds should even be involved in education, but they are and that makes them partially responsible for the current sad state of our public school system.

IMO, we are never go ing to see any significant improvement in any of this country’s problems as long as the states are dependent on the FEDGOV for funds.

Period.

We should abolish income taxes, replacing them with a sales tax each of us pays to the state. The states should take what they need from these sales taxes and then send what’s left to the FEDGOV. While I know this will never likely happen, this is the kind of change we need in order to solve any of our current problems. As long as the FEDGOV is able to spend like drunken sailors and the people continue to vote these scumbags into office, nothing will change.

You think this does anything to strengthen your position or to damage mine? You think slander and mud slinging like a bunch of primates makes you look good or belongs in a debate of any kind?

You’re a neanderthal, just like Dumpy. Why was shit from LOAT even brought up in a thread about the economy? For no reason other than to attack me personally. You somehow think that name calling and attacking someones character are valid points of argument. You are what is wrong with humanity. You, and people like you, are why we can never get anything accomplished, in government or the private sector, without personal attacks and slander every step of the goddamn way.

I don’t care how many people like me on this forum, it’s a FORUM, it’s not real life. In real life I bite my tongue for the sake of diplomacy. Here however I speak the truth, the unpopular truth, and am intelligent enough to defend it and not roll over to you people like everyone else does, that is why people don’t like me, if that is even the case. You think you can somehow speak for everyone…

So our ability to defend ourselves and remain a sovereign nation depends on the charitable donations of tax money to the fed by each individual state?

You just authored a novella about how guys like us are what’s wrong with humanity … to drive home your point that personal attacks don’t belong in discussions. Ironical. eloel.

It wasn’t a personal attack, it was observation on the nature of humanity, therefore no irony trasnpired.

If it’s within the scope of human nature, then why is "wrong"? Are you suggesting that man ought to act against his nature?

You’re starting to sound more and more like a religious nutter every time you post. Next thing you know, you’re going to defend gay bashing by saying that homosexuality falls outside the scope of this nebulous "nature of humanity."

Believing in a magical man in the sky is well within human nature as well, do you believe in that?

You’re starting to sound less and less logical everytime you post.

What position? Have you seen me post in this thread prior to calling you the lunatic that you are?

I’ve no idea why it was brought up, but while you’re in the process of imagining that anyone in LAOT might respect any of your positions, I thought it worthwhile to point out that the collective population can’t stand you, and that your ‘positions’ hardly merit the label.

I’m not assaulting your positions - I stopped paying any attention to them a long time ago. The reason people don’t respond to you in LAOT is that you’re so motherfucking annoying that no one wants to encourage you to keep posting. You claim to contribute to the forum, and yet the preponderance of your posts are unbelievably stupid. Most can be reduced to, "Gee, Christians are stupid, LOL," or, "Everyone think about this incredibly retarded question."

And you say the atheists don’t respond to your points? You aren’t making points. You’re just making noise. And we’re silently wishing that you would GO AWAY.

… Let me see if I got this straight:

1. You posted in this thread for the sole reason to personally attack me, like you said you haven’t even posted here before that, and have no other interest in this thread. I believe that qualifies as a tier 2 violation of the general site rules, I have gotten 2 people banned very recently, for the same exact thing.

2. you admit to having "stopped paying attention to [me] long ago" yet claim to have knowledge about the quality of my recent posts in LOAT… which is it boss? Because as it is you make no sense here.

3. You claim knowledge of the opinions of and/or speak for the entirety of the LOAT forum population. Okay there big boy, get off your high horse, you are no one, and certainly should not be so arrogant as to think you can speak for a hundred people simultaneously.

No, I posted to refute the notion that you were of some import or repute in LAOT. If I just wanted to attack you, I’d have done it in LAOT a long time ago. I’m just stunned that you could pronounce that you’re a worthwhile contributor to LAOT when the LAOT community at large sees you as more of a nuisance.

I didn’t say recent.

There are not 100 people in LAOT. I’ve been active in that subforum for many years. I know most of the other active members. I have a pretty good idea of what their opinion of you is (and the fact that at least 3 of them have posted the same sentiment in response to your claim is a pretty good indicator).

So you came here JUST to say that I am a worthless poster in a sub-forum that this thread is not even a part of? I don’t see any difference between that and coming into this thread and posting for the sole reason to personally attack me, you aren’t doing much to convince me to not forward this to the appropriate mods.

So you claim no one in LOAT likes me, that I never make "worthwhile contributions", that all I do is make noise… yet you don’t know anything about any of my posts since you started ignoring me "a long time ago"… nice. Do you like making yourself look foolish?

The fact that you and the other people from LOAT came into this thread to support Dumpy is due to nothing more than the fact that Dumpy posted quotes from this thread in LOAT, for which he has been disciplined already, in addition to a new rule being added to that subforum. You are acting like a child, with a bunch of other children. One of them has gotten a spanking already, do yourself a favor and go home…. and stop making a fool out of yourself.

wow

that was histerical, completely unfounded and completely full of fail. The only thing that was missing is a "think of the children" shrill.

Yeah man, pocket change

I didn’t realize people were disagreeing with a system that is in place to help get people back on their feet and once again become meaningful and contributable members of society after suffering (usually) unnavoidable hardships that would have otherwise ended with them homeless for the rest of their lifes…

Yeah man, welfare is a fantastic system. We should support increasing it. I’m also a big fan of the compulsory government savings program that gives you zero opportunity to opt out.

You’re all for getting rid of it until you have to deal with the dead frozen homeless bodies on the streets each winter. I guess you could plow them into snowbanks, but then they will smell pretty bad when spring comes.

Such a waste, when statistically the majority of them would have eventually gotten back on their feet, and ended up completely repaying for the aid they were given through the taxation of their new found income. The program costs very little, you just don’t understand the revenue it generates.

You, and many people in this thread, are only seeing half the picture. Many of these programs cost us money in the short term, but make money in the long term. They are an investment in the american citizen, and if you think that is a bad investment you might as well leave this country.

I came in here JUST to refute your claim to be a valued contributor to that subforum. And I really don’t give a shit how you take it. I posted half out of incredulity and half to make sure that no one believed you when you made such ridiculous claims about a community that I feel obliged to defend.

Are you implying that the quality of your posts has improved from when you first started plastering LAOT with the trite crap that we’ve come to know you for? That’s possible, but I rather doubt it.

I didn’t come here to support Dumpy. I disagree with Dumpy on politics better than half the time. I came here to refute you. I’d prefer you not give a lot of other people the idea that LAOT considers you some sort of valuable member.

You made a claim about THAT forum here, so I think Dumpy’s posting it in THAT forum was entirely valid.

And I suspect that "foolish" and "childish" are just a few of many epithets you’d like to hurl at anyone who points out that your arrogantly claiming to be a valued member of a community that generally despises you is a load of crap. All of your accolades come only from yourself. And yet you have the temerity to say that others look foolish.

I did. See av.

No.

Government can accumulate enough funds to build roads with no income tax.

What? Government delivers goods to me?

No, they will go to a private doctor who is actually interested in treating people instead of being some pharmaceutical conglomerate’s pusher, and since the government won’t be fucking with anything a Constitution doesn’t allow it to fuck with, they can actually try all sorts of medicine.

I don’t even know what to say to something this powerfully stupid, so I’ll just post this

Some of our best universities have been put together with no aid from government whatsoever.

So against income tax means against the army? What kind of a fucked up Sean Hannity logic is that? And why would China attack us? Seriously, if we are sitting on our own North American continent and are just minding our own business and actually live the freedom instead of just hear it on the radio and put magnets on our cars, why would China attack us? We’re far, we provide them jobs, we educate their young….

True, the internet is a child of a Military Industrial Complex and that is a fact that no one disputes. But the electronics industry, so far regulated much less then most other industries, have exploded specifically because of bright minds that were unrestricted with red tape government bullshit.

I need to work for 1/4 of a year to keep that fire truck maintained? Really? Looks like another hysterical screaming.

Yawn. More of the same.

This got boring real quick. Yeah we will all party like it’s 1899, we got it. This country has become rich and powerful specifically because the taxes were low and some nonexistent, not because we had these awesome dudes in the Capitol Hill looking our for our every single need.

Kindly read this site. Perhaps you will learn something of value.

I never brought it up, Dumpy did.

I am implying that you are foolish to make claims as to the quality of my posts after admitting to not paying attention to them long ago.

I didn’t bring it up, I never mentioned LOAT before DUMPY brought it up for the sole reason to attack me. Take your fucking time and read this thread so you actually know what you are talking about, so that you don’t act like a fool.

I didn’t say you brought it up. I said you made a claim about it. Your claim was incorrect. I assume it’s irrelevant to this thread. But you made a claim, nonetheless. A fucking ridiculous one.

And you came all the way over here from LOAT, where Dumpy quoted posts from this thread which is against the rules of that forum, to derail a thread that has nothing to do with what we are discussing, for the sole purpose of slandering me.

Tell me again why I should not bring this up with the appropriate mods as a tier 2 violation?

For the third time, I came here to refute a claim you made about a community that I am part of. I did not attack you out of the blue.

The fact that you feel the only way you can prevent everyone from realizing what useless piece of shit you are is to threaten me with nonexistent regulation is probably more telling than all of my posts in this thread. I look forward to the day when whining like a little shit is a bannable offense.

You are a of it, you are not THE community, you are not the LEADER of the community, you are no one. You should speak for yourself and no one else, who made you the official spokesman of LOAT? You come into this thread and speak for everyone, claim knowledge of everyone’s opinion. You must think you are a pretty important guy in LOAT, people who act like you likely have nothing going for them in real life so they cling to imaginary online existences.

Do you have nothing more to say about making claims as to the quality of my posts after admitting to "ignoring them a long time ago"? Can we just chalk this up to arrogance? Ignorance? Irrationality?

I didn’t do anything to you, or against you, or anything having to do with you. You posted in a thread about taxation with NO relevant on topic content for the sole reason to disagree with me about something that had nothing to do with you personally. This is called trolling, it is also called harassment, it is against the rules of this forum, and what caused you to come to this thread was against the rules of that subforum and has already been adressed by the mods of that subforum.

Nothing about the way you acted was right, or honorable, or mature.
lulz …. the irony of red engaging in the same behavior he supposedly abhors in others.

The best part is he acts like he is on a pedestal, somehow above everyone and a representative of the opinions of a large group of people. The way he struts around you would think he owned the place, or was a mod of LOAT or something. His opinions are not his own, no they are representative of the entire community. You will never see that level of arrogance in anything I say.
Meh…. unsurprisingly it was ultimately lew at the heart of shitting up this thread with personal attacks (and LAOT crap).

But, anyways. Back to what you were saying about taxes, perhaps?

Red has the authority to speak for everyone in LAOT. Ask any regular in LAOT. We will all vouch for him.

If you take issue with his conclusion about the quality of your posts, then feel free to link to whatever posts of yours that you deem to be of high quality.

You’re slinging mud while bitching about people slinging mud.

Let’s talk about hypocrisy. eloel.

CodeX has been described as "The Karnejj of LAOT."

Seeing you apologize for him is all too appropriate.

I am a regular in LOAT, I will not vouch for him, you fail.
Can’t we all just get along?

If not, can the bitching be done through relevant points? I don’t really care if Blue is the equivalent of a DIAC poster who represents everyone () or if Codesex is your favorite poster in another forum.

If this is the dialog about taxes, then it’s clear none of us have that much to contribute.

You are not a regular. You fail.

But it is good to see you vouching for him. That’s nice of you.

lol I always make typos at the least opportune times.

I am a regular in LOAT, as evident here, you giant failure. If this isn’t the definition of regular I don’t know what is:

That just means you spam the shit out of the forum. Believe me, if you never returned there, nobody would notice. Ergo, you are not a regular.

lol you speak for everyone just like red,

you two should just sleep together already.
This is tedious. You insert yourself where you are unwanted and claim that you are valuable there.

You say the secular wing of the LAOT regular crew values you? Find one. Three have denounced you here.

The three that have "denounced" me here are the same three that are constantly circle-jerking each other over there and have been since long before I got here.

What is ridiculous is you making an off-topic and derailing post in a thread for the sole purpose of defaming me and then acting as if you have some moral high ground, on top of being so fucking pompous that you try to speak for everyone in an entire subforum… fucking ridiculous

You’re not used to people disagreeing with you or putting you in your place are you? You have the personality of a wife beater.

How can anyone respect you after this? How can you respect yourself after acting so ridiculous? After making claims to the quality of my posts when you admit you had stopped reading them long ago
All of this shit started at post 116 when Dumpy and then Lew responded to a legitimate post I made with nothing but bullshit and personal attacks, the rest is me defending myself because I am not someone who rolls over to immature pieces of shit and their playground tactics. Someone please respond to this so we can get this trainwreck back on track after these douchebags completely derailed it with their bullshit brought up from another forum, of which two mods have already been involved and two of these children have been warned to knock this shit off.

This is deliciously hypocritical. It was you who were pompous enough to declare your value in the first place. I never claimed to be the voice of the community, I’ve merely observed that the majority of them despise you. I don’t infer this - many of them have said as much.

I am done. I feel bad enough already for participating in this shit, any other response from you will get nothing but this quote, in an attempt to fix this and get this discussion back on track when we were responsible for ending it prematurely. Someone has to be the bigger man here, red, and its obviously not going to be you.

it’s true, no one cares for CodeX except himself. unfortunately that’s enough for him.

OT != Real Life. I don’t look at this place as a popularity contest. I post my opinion and don’t hold back for the sake of making friends, if you are concerned with virtual e-friends you have real problems and should see a therapist. Kanejj stood up for me here, but if I see him make a stupid point in some other thread 10 minutes from now I will reply and state as much. I do not participate in altruism on a fucking forum, that is why some people have a negative opinion of me. The exact opposite of this was just demonstrated here, the "LOAT clique", the circle jerk as I call it, all for the sake of some virtual altruism. It sickens me, it makes me think blowjobs are being given out behind the scenes.

.

Then it’s good that LAOT also has someone that points out lew’s idiocy (even though it means having to suffer his tedious whiny bitch tantrums there), too.

lulz …. suck off lew all you like, but pointing out his bullshit isn’t really an apology of any type, genius. Troll harder.

People have a negative opinion of you for the contents of your posts. Your delusion about this is pretty amusing.

Do you think there is something OTHER than the contents of your posts on an internet forum? Are you delusional?
You just said the exact same thing I did… I just went further to explain the contents of my posts and how they aren’t pandering to my e-friends due to some misplaced sense of comraderie or altruism or for the need for virtual companionship and acceptance

You’re pathetic.

As opposed to your impression that it has something to do with some sort of altruism, or popularity contest. It’s not about a clique - it’s about your attitude.

You have a tendency to wander into — or start — a thread by implying that you’re superior to the rest of the posters, while at the same time posting something so painfully stupid or trite that everyone cannot help but notice the stark contrast between your perceived value of yourself, and your actual value. We become annoyed with it. And that’s why I feel the need to tell you here, as you go out proclaiming your value to LAOT to others, that your impression of your own value could not be more misguided.

You seem to think your opinion has more merit than anyone elses. Do you want me to quote a dozen posts demonstrating good, valid points I have made during an actual recent debate? 2 dozen? Say the word big man. But it will have to wait until tomorrow after work, I am going out, I have a life outside of this forum, Mr. 44,000 fucking posts… Most people see their post count as a badge of honor, I see it as a mark of shame. I will ask for a self ban long before I reach the posts per day number you have. Go outside, get a life, go out on the weekends.

Wow.

I have been you and it’s not pretty.

Don’t let these people get to you. Take it as a challenge to try to put people in their place, as calmly as possible. Don’t let them see you sweat.

I am new here and don’t really know anyone yet, but you seem pretty reasonable, so don’t let a few bad apples ruin what you have to say.

Just some free advice from a person who has let others get to him.

what happened to this?

oh, i forgot, you always need to have the last word because you’re an immature little faggot.

Isn’t that what I just accused you of? I’ve done nothing in this thread to build myself up, I’m merely attempting to disabuse you of the misguided belief that LAOT, on the whole, has some manner of respect for you, least of all the respect you seem to think you deserve.

And your responses to my efforts have been: insults, threats, accusations of conspiracy, accusations that I’m putting words into other peoples’ mouths.

Never once have you actually attempted to demonstrate your basic claim: that LAOT, specifically, the secular wing, somehow values you. You completely ignore the fact that all of us who have posted on the subject here say the opposite.
"I believe that a better way to raise revenue not only can be found but must be found because I am convinced that the present system is leading us right back to the very tyranny from which those, who established this land of freedom, risked their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to forever free themselves…" "I don’t like the income tax. Every time we talk about these taxes we get around to the idea of ‘from each according to his capacity and to each according to his needs’. That’s socialism. It’s written into the Communist Manifesto. Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what’s happening to him". — Former IRS Commissioner T. Coleman Andrews, May 25, 1956 in US. News & World Report

The entire interview is worth reading, if anyone is interested in what a former IRS Commissioner had to say……

"Eight decades of amendments… to [the] code have produced a virtually impenetrable maze… The rules are unintelligible to most citizens… The rules are equally mysterious to many government employees who are charged with administering and enforcing the law."
- Former IRS Commissioner Shirley Peterson, April 14, 1993 at Southern Methodist University

• "Today the income tax is in trouble, because its exaction’s are forcing the middle class into poverty, and IRS abuses are routine."
  — Paul Craig Roberts, former Asst. Secretary - U.S. Treasury
  
• "The (tax) system is so sick that we must put it to sleep and start over."
  – Richard Davis, former Assistant IRS Branch Chief
  
• "I just wanted to speak to you about something from the Internal Revenue Code. It is the last sentence of section 509A of the code and it reads: ‘For purposes of paragraph 3, an organization described in paragraph 2 shall be deemed to include an organization described in section 501C-4, 5, or 6, which would be described in paragraph 2 if it were an organization described in section 501C-3.’ And that’s just one sentence out of those fifty-seven feet of books."
  — Ronald Reagan (1911-2004) 40th US President

Same source as above.

That last one by Reagan is a classic.

don’t worry, he does the same thing in a million other subforums. he posts in C&P where no one likes him, but he’ll say the same thing: "well there’s SOME members here that like me!" of course that’s not true. he trolls constantly in there and in the mac shack, and i KNOW no one in there likes him.

if he wants to troll i don’t know why he decides to troll all the subforums instead of just sticking to OT main.
Did you know Money Magazine has sent out a hypothetical tax return to different CPAs, picked randomly out of the phone book? Guess what happened?

In 1992 Money magazine gave 48 accountants a financial profile of the magazine’s typical reader and asked them to prepare a hypothetical tax return. Not only did each of them come up with a different answer, but the computed tax liabilities ranged from $16,219 to $46,564 — the higher figure nearly three times the lower.

SEE THE RESULTS AT THE LINK. Sickening.

The LAOT crowd is starting to get really ridiculous as of late

and i can vouch for him being the same in gamers pulse

What the fuck is this shit. Wah! Nobody likes me. I’m going to have you banned. Wah!

Seriously. There is only 1 way to settle this. Make a thread in LAOT entitled "Am I a valuable member of this sub-forum" Make the poll public.

Poll answers should be:

"Yes, I think Codex is a valuable member. I am part of the religious crew."
"No, I don’t think Codex is a valuable member. I am part of the religious crew."
"Yes I think Codex is a valuable member. I am part of the secular crew."
"No, I don’t think Codex is a valuable member. I am part of the secular crew."
"Other/No answer"

That is, if you really think red is wrong about LAOT’s opinion of you.

In for this idea. Stop shitting up this thread and take the debate where it belongs.

Are you completely illiterate?

Not only did I NOT claim red was wrong, only that he was ridiculous for thinking he can or should speak for an entire subforum, but I also specifically stated that I don’t give a shit how many people here like me, it is not important to me in the least, as should be evident. I do not compromise my opinions or the way I express them to maintain some pathetic online relationships with losers.

Yeah. You don’t care about the opinions people have about you. That is why you are threatening bans because some expressed a negative opinion about you. Good job.

But you know, I’m glad you are staying pure and not compromising the way you express your opinions. Now nobody gives a shit about them because they think they are just obnoxious mindless drivel. So… is there any reason you continue to post at all? You’d be just as effective if you wrote your posts on notepad then printed them out directly into the trash can.

ibIamthreatenedwithaban

I threatened bans due to blatant violations of the rules which resulted in a perfectly good thread that I was participating in to be turned to shit.

Yet you keep replying to me…
When < 10% of my posts are replied to there will be no reason to continue to post, right now it is close to 100% that are replied to.

Poor baby.

You are replied to for the same reason UP is replied to. That doesn’t mean anyone takes your opinions seriously though. They are a joke.

Enough with the character assassination. Do I come over into your part of the woods to shit? No? Then get out of mine.

lol what do you think they are there for?

The mods? I guess for little bitches like you to go run to because someone, whose opinion about you you claim not to care about, hurts your feelings by telling you his opinion about you.

Go find another one to fight your fights for you, pussy.
Well fuck. I best get out of this thread as apparently the Codex-is-a-little-bitch hijack isn’t official and is pissing off people.

Oh shit. What a pathetic little bitch.

Now what?

Careful. He’ll get you bant.
As a sidenote, I inserted that because I was pretty sure CodeX would think I was seriously warning you, otherwise, and proceed to brag about how people were afraid of him.

oh… excuse me gentlemen… I didn’t realize you were still here… since no one has posted here for 24 hours now… guess you thought it would be a good quite place to meet for some and some and some

I have no idea what you are talking about…
Well thanks for watching.

Join us next week for the next installment of………..

ARE YOU MORE CHILDISH THAN A 5TH GRADER.

Goodnight everybody.

But seriously, I would like to apologize for myself, Dumpy Dooby, Lew, Red, and Simius for what happened to this thread. I think if you look you will find I was trying to have a legitimate discussion in here when the others jumped in and started attacking me with shit posted in other forums that had nothing to do with this. The proof of what happened is in black and white.
Make that 4 people in LAOT secular crew who find you kind of repugnant lol.
Make that 4 people I am ashamed to be associated with who think it is perfectly fine to destroy a good thread where actual on topic discussion was taking place by coming in for the sole purpose of slinging mud like a bunch of grade schoolers on a playground

Outright lie I never said that. Where is the quote?

Oh shut the fuck up. You post in LAOT with the sole purpose to bash theists as retards who are oppressing mankind. You are a hate filled little man. We would respect you if you weren’t such a cunt. Do us a favor and get fucked by your horse faced girlfriend.

Anyone who reads this thread will see this for what it is. I am the only person involved in this train wreck that acted with any degree of class or respectability. I am so above you little children socially and intellectually I don’t even know why I bother to converse with any of you.

Way to take a cheap shot at my girlfriend though. Beleive me I could do the same but I don’t pride myself in acting like an animal. How can you respect yourself?
Motion for the political forumites to offer LAOT crew an extended moment of silence, that they may heal their tender psyches and express all of the emotions repressed in their prior religious ruminations.

Amen.

I bow to the massive intellect known as the CodeX. Please professor CodeX, with your year of introductory biology courses, tell me about the dirty theists and how genetics account for everything human. Tell us how dirty and evil they are.

If we are such children why don’t you leave LAOT? Everyone would be grateful.

This forum is entertainment. You right now are entertainment

You think I sit behind my computer all pissed off? I have been laughing my ass off at this nonsense all today and yesterday, my "horse faced" girlfriend has been also… It’s kind of like watching the monkeys at the zoo, you rattle the bars on their cage a bit and see how they react, watch them piss on each other and smell their own assholes. The parallels are remarkable.

If nothing else this has exposed the "core" regulars of that forum for what they are, neanderthals without an ounce of class, tact, dignity, or respect. I am ashamed to be associated with the people who have invaded this thread, and I would like to stress that that association goes no deeper than our religious convictions, or lack thereof.

CodeX: classy. Dignified. Tactful. Respectful.

I, for one, do not accept Simius’s apology. First of all, I don’t think he is really sorry. Second of all, I am pretty sure that apologizing at this point is like raping a girl for 5 hours straight, shitting in her mouth, then apologizing as you duct tape her mouth shut. Fuck that. Apparently Simius thinks that making lame ass apologies and then taking no responsibility for what happened and instead blaming everyone else such as Dumpy, Lew and Red will earn him e-points or some other bullshit.

Fuck that. And Fuck him.

Oh hell no. Don’t you talk shit about my e-friends like that, bitch.
It always interests me the evolutionary paths threads generally take. By page 5, there is usually not a lot of substance written regarding the original subject. Kind of like passing information down a line from one person to another. By the time it gets to the 20th person, the message is usually nothing like the original. But this pissing contest in particular has really made me .

For better or for worse, I believe the vast majority of the people who post here are "good people" IRL and in their hearts. If we were all at a bar together, we may not all be best friends, but I do believe we would tilt a glass towards each other at in a general and mutual respect.

Here in the on line world, we have a greater tendency to shit in our own pants and fling our poop at each other.

Fascinating.

Welcome to DIAC. (unfortunately)

Couldn’t have said it better.

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